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My take on this game

Posted: January 11th, 2008, 11:54 am
by Bryce
First of all, kudos to Basilisk Games for making this for Linux. One reason I bought it is to support GNU/Linux game development. (But that's not the only reason.)

I like the pre-rendered diametric perspective with animation you use to present the game-world in. I don't particularly care for free-camera 3D RPGs, and static-camera first person RPGs I have never liked at all except when the graphics were the focus, e.g. Mystlike adventure games.

The effects are pretty good. As a frequent visitor of Pacific Northwestern beaches, the foggy beach seemed very realistic to me :) Also, the sounds, music and the lighting effects were helpful in creating a mood, although their granularity was a little rough. I realize smooth lighting effects are expensive in terms of programmer effort (getting them to interact with things other than big open areas correctly), but I think that would be a great feature for your next game, now that all the gameplay-critical engine features are taken care of.

Although the game seems to correctly compute line of sight for obstruction of targets, I was disappointed by the lack of visibility changes on the map. Full-on line of sight tracing is expensive in CPU and programmer time, but a simple mechanism based on rooms (and, in towns, roofs that disappear when you go under them) is not hard and is often visually superior anyway. This would add a lot to the game, because enemies and other surprises (e.g. the corpse in the room in that mining town) would be hidden by closed doors.

The inventory system was good. It needs a little polishing (auto-stacking comes to mind), but it is quite functional. Overall, the interface is pretty and feels "smooth," although it could be more flexible. (See Cythera for instance.) You might want to consider allowing items to be placed on or picked up off the ground, as it seems strange that all objects are found in containers such as barrels. Indeed, I think my character's deity is "The Great Cooper, giver of a Rusty Plate Armor and the Brewer's Handbook in Random Barrels." One issue that bothers me though is that there isn't a way to move around with the keyboard. The mouse is much harder on my wrists than the keyboard and this is very easy to implement. Please give me numberpad/arrowkey movement.

I'm happy with the combat system, although damaging magic seems somewhat weak, making a mage really hard to play. Eventually, I made a character who could survive, fighter-healer hybrid. Also I save-scummed some barrels during the beginning, which brought the difficulty of the game down to an acceptable level.

So, overall, the difficulty is a little high until you find the right character creation strategy. I'm a fairly good RPG player technically speaking, but I'm afraid that a less munchkinostic person might have trouble. Perhaps a default character is in order?

Anyway, great game, I look forward to the next one if you make it for Linux. Thanks again.

Posted: January 11th, 2008, 12:51 pm
by BasiliskWrangler
You're welcome. Thank you.

Posted: January 12th, 2008, 3:21 pm
by Ulf Nordson
Sorry, but I dont agree with your opinion. The game is very easy. Yes, the first 30-50 minutes of gameplay is a bit chalangable, but then with the oportunity to learn skills from the trainers and buying books....

The game is interesting and somewhat unique, but considering it's size and time of gamplay - it becomes like when you just get that feeling of true old-school roleplaying you realize that the next quest is the last one.

...After reading some topics here on forum, I can't stop asking myself a question - people, what are you doing? You are talking about old-school rpg, about real hardcore roleplaying crpg....and continue creating spoiler topics because you can't deal with the simpliest quest or situation... just because of your lazyness ... Shame on you...Remember the experience of playing Wizardry or Fallout, BG, Planescape....

...All that I want to say - Thomas and Co - please make the second book of Eschalon real though, hardcore and old-school...a lot of people are waiting for such kind of game for a long time....thank you.

Posted: January 12th, 2008, 3:49 pm
by Horace2
Ulf Nordson wrote:Sorry, but I dont agree with your opinion. The game is very easy. Yes, the first 30-50 minutes of gameplay is a bit chalangable, but then with the oportunity to learn skills from the trainers and buying books....
Agreed that the game is pretty easy. After one learns a bit about the relative power of different character progression paths, you have to intentionally make it interesting by going Iron Man (no reloading after dying) or intentionally nerfing your character with artificial constraints on development choices.
...After reading some topics here on forum, I can't stop asking myself a question - people, what are you doing? You are talking about old-school rpg, about real hardcore roleplaying crpg....and continue creating spoiler topics because you can't deal with the simpliest quest or situation... just because of your lazyness ... Shame on you...Remember the experience of playing Wizardry or Fallout, BG, Planescape....
What astonishes me most of all is that almost everybody seems to save scum chests and barrels to get good random drops. That reduces fun substantially: The process of save scumming is mind numbingly boring, going back and forth in time like that destroys any sense of the 'reality' of the adventure, and it makes each new barrel / chest less of an exciting event.

At some level, players are partially responsible for how much fun they have with a game.

Posted: January 12th, 2008, 3:50 pm
by Bryce
Ulf Nordson wrote:Sorry, but I dont agree with your opinion. The game is very easy. Yes, the first 30-50 minutes of gameplay is a bit chalangable, but then with the oportunity to learn skills from the trainers and buying books....
Yes, playing further I would agree that it gets easier after the first few quests. However, the first part is too hard, and if anything it should be the other way around so that people will get interested in it. Dying sixteen times to bats will not endear the game to most people.
Ulf Nordson wrote: <old coot ranting>
Yeah, and in your day people wore an anvil on their trousers because walking without an anvil was too easy.

I've beaten NetHack a few times without savescumming (reloading the game after something bad happens, even a single time). I was the first known person to beat Avernum 5 with a singleton on Hard difficulty. While I'm not by any means the king of munchkins, min-maxers and tacticians, I think I am reasonably qualified to describe a game as "hard." Further, people often intend to play an RPG only once, and want spoilers so they can make some long-term plans as to character type, etc. This does not make them bad players. There were strategy guides long before having them on websites was popular. People wanting that kind of information is not a new thing.

Posted: January 12th, 2008, 4:01 pm
by Bryce
Horace2 wrote: What astonishes me most of all is that almost everybody seems to save scum chests and barrels to get good random drops. That reduces fun substantially, since the process of save scumming is mind numbingly boring, and it makes each new barrel / chest less of an exciting event.
None of the early monsters except the salted coast thugs drop items. You start with 300 gold, which is enough for one, maybe two items. With that, you have two options:

(1) Scum barrels in the beginning to get decent equipment,
(2) Do each dungeon two or three rooms at a time, running back outside to camp.

I'm starting to see the variability of the item drops as a bit of a shortcoming though. (SPOILER AHEAD) In the chest on the island west of Vela where your brother is, I opened it for the first time and got two peices of high-grade enchanted armor, a scroll and some cash. I was curious if this was a fixed treasure, which I thought it ought to be, so I saved a copy of my game and opened it again. One Ambergris! Wooo! What an amazing reward for battling all those goblins!

Needless to say, I continued with my original game.
I like the random treasures, don't get me wrong, but the variability is too much. I think it should be more along the lines of, for example, "2d20 gold, 50% chance of a low level scroll, 60% chance of a gem, 10% chance of a minor magic armor" rather than "virtually any amount of anything or probably nothing."

Posted: January 12th, 2008, 7:59 pm
by Bryce
By the way, nice:

Image

Posted: January 13th, 2008, 8:03 am
by acoustibop
There are three of these, Bryce, collect them all and you can use them somewhere for a nice reward! But, if you've already done Vela, you may have missed one from a early quest. :(

Edit: whoops! You didn't say where you got it - don't know if you've missed one or not! ;)

Posted: January 13th, 2008, 2:11 pm
by Ulf Nordson
2Bryce - I don't mind that you are protecting your own opinion but I don't like your quotes about <old coot ranting>...

My slavonic mentality will make my lanquage untranslatable soon for you and other english speaking people...so, please, choose the words more wisely.

I have no intention to say something abusive, just my personal thoughts about the difficulty of Eshalon and 'modern rpg players'...

If the game were less difficult in the begining - I'd probably didn't manage to continue playing it further... If someone looks for easier game - Newerwinter is their choice with it's simple-railway-quests and etc.

P.S. save scuming - is the best way to become idiot :D

Posted: January 13th, 2008, 2:15 pm
by Bryce
The old coot bit, and the part about wearing some absurd object on your trousers, is a reference to Grandpa Simpson from The Simpsons. It was meant as a joke.

Posted: January 13th, 2008, 2:25 pm
by Ulf Nordson
fine. if you say so - there goes a joke from me....

- "слыш, пацык, ты чё такой дерзкий,а?"
:lol:

Posted: January 13th, 2008, 5:41 pm
by MaximB
Ulf Nordson wrote:fine. if you say so - there goes a joke from me....

- "слыш, пацык, ты чё такой дерзкий,а?"
:lol:
Russian huh...;) (and no bryce , it wasn't a bad language or curses so don't start wars here).

Although I don't remember playing an old school rpgs I find this game very hard for me - which is good.
All the other rpgs I've played like neverwinter nights 1+exp, fable (in my windows days) fallout, elder scrolls - oblivion , they were ALL were easy for me, all the quests were very clear and understandable, you didn't need to think much.
But this game is very hard in terms of quests, by just playing the demo I can see this.
It might be too hard for me (well I've played it for an hour maybe so I can do better ) but for others it's perfect.
We can really use a hard game once in a decade ;).

P.S
The graphic could be much better (yeah I know it's an old school rpg and all) - just had to say it.

Posted: January 14th, 2008, 12:44 am
by Ulf Nordson
nights 1+exp, fable (in my windows days), elder scrolls - oblivion -
- those are not perfect example for rpg (IMHO) - If to talk about difficulty as I remember ADOM and some other kind of MUD-games - those were really hard to play....and my first impression about Eshalon was that it's a MUD but with graphics :D

P.S. Sorry for all the mistakes I make in my posts - I'm from Ukraine and my English is not perfect :roll:

Posted: January 14th, 2008, 1:17 am
by MaximB
Ulf Nordson wrote:
nights 1+exp, fable (in my windows days), elder scrolls - oblivion -
- those are not perfect example for rpg (IMHO) - If to talk about difficulty as I remember ADOM and some other kind of MUD-games - those were really hard to play....and my first impression about Eshalon was that it's a MUD but with graphics :D

P.S. Sorry for all the mistakes I make in my posts - I'm from Ukraine and my English is not perfect :roll:
Thought so ... it was too bad/funny for Russian "слыш, пацык" ;)
Anyway I've never played MUD games , I must have graphics - but it might be just me.

Posted: January 14th, 2008, 1:33 pm
by Ulf Nordson
it was too bad/funny for Russian "слыш, пацык" Wink
This joke is based on our surrounding reality :twisted: