The Drunken Lizard Pub

Hi All,

I've been thinking about this and I thought I might throw it out there and see what other people think:

Sometimes I find the whole issue of saving and restoring games to break my "suspension of disbelief". I don't think I'm alone in this. Although I realize the alternatives are also somewhat unpleasant (ugh, start over from the beginning) or jarring as well (save at certain way points/auto saves, etc.). I do think there are quite possibly "other" alternatives that may suffice to keep the suspension of disbelief going but also not put you so far back that you loose a lot of time. I'm sure there are a number of possibilities to accomplish this (hence this thread), and to start it off I will offer up my own humble ideas for comment and consideration:

One idea: is that you secure the alchemical formula for the philosophers stone (after a series of quests) this allows you to prepare a special potion that allows you to rise from the dead after being struck down (I imagine a number of rounds passing while your enemies leave your corpse and it's safe to raise yourself). Note: you would have to quaff the potion before dying and it would be active until you are killed. This would allow you to cont. without restoring a saved game, but would be costly (the ingredients would be expensive). Also, while the philosopher’s stone also allows you to make lead into gold I'm not sure if that's a good idea, although: maybe it's really hard to find lead in the game! (Also: you could only have 1 elixir of life prepared at a time...)

Another idea I had involved a series of quests that give you the ability to store your soul in a soul flask. Upon being killed your soul would rise and you would have to make it back to the location where your soul was stored and then become corporeal again. Note: to retrieve your goods would require going back to the location of your corpse. So, placing items/gear near your soul flask, and the location of where you leave the soul flask, would involve strategic thinking, etc.

It's certainly an interesting concept and something that should be considered with it would be whether or not one keeps the items in their inventory upon death. It would be fine if killed by a monster or even sometimes an opponent of another faction but if killed by bandits you can bet they're going to loot your corpse. Storing items and spares in barrels or (*cough*) banks would become more important.

Also what should be considered if the creature that killed you is trying to eat you? Some monsters might kill you and hang you up to be eaten later (ala Star Wars on Hoth) in which case you'd have a bit of a predicament to get out of upon revival. But others would eat you where you fell. Now I can imagine the "elixir of revival" might make it so that after a monster tastes your corpse that it becomes ill and runs off and your lost limbs regenerate, but the soul flask method might require some extra steps before resurrection if your body parts are being digested.

Also there's the obligatory divine intervention method of resurrection. If you're virtuous and have a clean moral record then divine resurrection should be a snap and not require an intact body, however it might require a very special blessing and (*ahem*) hefty donation to the church also might need a quest chain to even get the option.

And similar versions with their own eccentricities for the other axioms (excluding agnostic and atheistic of course).

The benefits of this kind of system is that death (while not permanent) becomes meaningful and has consequences so you want to stay alive more. But to me seems a greater suspension of disbelief than saving/reloading, hence why I brought up item theft and corpse mutilation.

I have no qualms with saving and reloading and I'm not sure if Eschalon is the series that this revival system should/could be implemented, but it's certainly worth the consideration and discussion.

That said, an "elixir of revival" might make an excellent unique epic item to get to use in one battle at some point (say it allows you to restore a set amount of HP per round even if your HP reaches 0 thus reviving you from a killing blow the moment it happens for a limited number of rounds) and that item being very well hidden somewhere in the game world. I would really like that, and just like in the save/reload debate it would be the player's prerogative to use it or not.

From the designer's point of view, a manual gamesave feature can cover a multitude of sins.

With the wide variety of PC configurations out there, it is always possible that some users may be prone to game crashes - especially in an indy game. Also, just because of the complexity of interlocking quests, a player may inadvertantly do something that makes it impossible to complete part of the game without starting over again. And, without infinite play testing, some players may just get to a part of the game that's darned hard to survive simply because it didn't take into account the particular skill set you chose.

If the game is interesting enough, a player will put up with the inconvenience of saving and reloading. But nobody will want to have to pay an ingame penalty for problems that may be no fault of his own.

That being said, I think an option in addition to the manual game save would be nice. Maybe it could automatically save every time a character levels, and before he allocates skill points. That way there would be a set of saved games at regular intervals all the way throughout the game. Then the player could just quicksave whenever he felt the need, but not have to worry about anything else.

Before I make a suggestion I am going to say that if anything besides the current system were to be implemented, it would require the player to choose "Regular" or "Iron Man" mode when creating their character. That's only fair.

Some games, which I cannot remember off the top of my head, have implemented a quick-save feature where when you use it, the game exits. When you load up the quick-save, it is automatically deleted. This would obviously have to be accompanied by a regular system where you can only, say, save in inns or taverns, or possibly temples (if you're virtuous, which gives an extra incentive to be good and stay good as temples could be more numerous than inns).

Any new save method will have to include the re-working of the treasure system, since there is nothing more game breaking than fighting your way through a ton of goblins, bats, and zombies in a huge labyrinth, expending countless potions, just to find out the RandomNumberGenerator decided to fill the chest at the end with two lock picks and a shirt. Chests would have to be given levels themselves, i.e. that final chest would definitely generate a random item but it would have a base value to it. Monsters likewise would have to be re-tooled so some random bee cannot get three critical hits in a row and force your previously rested character to trek all the way back into town and rest again or risk absolute death at the next, very near encounter.

kopema wrote:And, without infinite play testing, some players may just get to a part of the game that's darned hard to survive simply because it didn't take into account the particular skill set you chose.

I thought that was one of the points of this game - you're only as good as the character you choose to build. That way we don't have ludicrous level scaling. Unless you're saying that saving/reloading is needed because is the only way to get past those particularly tough areas instead of completely restarting the game. That reminds me of the first Fallout, when I accidentally was captured by the mutants and had to work my way out of their base at an extremely low level. Much saving and reloading ensued, but it was fun.

To me it's pretty simple. Saving the game is important for a number of reasons -- eg, gotta go to work or some other mundane thing, causing me to have to put the game down.

That said, in-game DEATH should have penalties... like a loss of a point or two of constitution, or loss of all gold, even if restored from save-game.

Hmm, perhaps...just have some sort of 'checkpoint marker.' Let us say...Something that will come to represent a save point.

For example, we'll use game one as a reference. You started southwest of Aridell yes? So, like that sign which you clicked on to get the 'quick travel' there would be something else there, maybe a statue of something that you can click on where it pops up the save box. Therefore, you would just place these statues around the world in book two, where the developers feel appropriate.

Of course, this is just a very very rough idea of something...

dare49devil wrote:Hmm, perhaps...just have some sort of 'checkpoint marker.' Let us say...Something that will come to represent a save point.

Hmm...checkpoint restarts... Sounds reasonable and easily workable to me.

I would prefer save and exit if I could not have the current Book I system. . The save can occur anywhere in the game, but will automatically exit to the main menu. The checkpoint system is used in some console games, but nothing is more frustrating than being midway between checkpoints and you have to put the game down. This means that when you restart all progress after the checkpoint is lost. This type of system is a game breaker for me. The computers in my home are in constant use. I cannot tell my wife who is working on her thesis, I sorry hon but I have to make it to the next checkpoint before you can do your work or sorry daughter your online classes will have to wait until I find the next checkpoint. The save feature as implemented in Book I works for me.

Also, I like the idea of multiple saves. I have had save files go corrupt in many crpgs. I was saved literally by my extra saves.

Well, the checkpoint think can be a sorta...'autosave' function that saves everytime one is clicked or something just to create normal saves through the game..

Then a save and exit option..

Tbh I don't mind the current system...Because it is not as if it affects the sales and such of the game. It doesn't break the game either..If you like quick saving every other second just to make sure you don't get BOOM KILLED then so be it. If that isn't you, then most likely, that person won't be quick saving every other second.

My first run through of the game I never even knew about what 'save scumming' was until I read the forums.

Checkpoints? So if you have only 10 minutes to play you basically can't play because you don't have time to get to the next checkpoint?
Saving your game at any time is for r/l convenience not for game realism...

nottorp wrote:Checkpoints? So if you have only 10 minutes to play you basically can't play because you don't have time to get to the next checkpoint?
Saving your game at any time is for r/l convenience not for game realism...

Indeed. While Eschalon is a bit more forgiving than most newer games (with time penalties or even limits, and real time game play), still I'd rather not leave 6 hours sitting for a couple more while I go to the store, just because I'm off where I can't easily get to a save point. That one "feature", in game save points, has made me drop more console titles than any other reason, simply because I will not leave my systems running non-stop if I can help it. 30-45 mins is one thing. 3 hours or so, no.

Checkpoint saves do not mesh well with real life. Many on this forum just do not have that kind of time. Action CRPGs are notorious for checkpoints, rebirth fountains what ever you want to call it. I played and finished Titan Quest. I really like the game but the save feature was almost a game breaker. I cannot tell you how many times I had to relequish the computer so other family members could meet their real life needs before I got to the next rebirth fountain. A good game with the ability to save anywhere at anytime is a keeper.

You can file me under the "save anytime" group... I have too short an attention span to deal with save points.

That's why I love emulators... save states for the win! I bought Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX for the Playstation... and I never had a Playstation! ^_^ I have to dig out my copy of Dragon Quest VIII now that I have this new computer I built... hopefully I finally have enough juice for the PS2 emulator.

Hi, new here!

I was wondering if the game could auto save at a constant rate, let say every 2 minutes for example... Of course it could not be a classic save but some kind of backup of what's new pop up during this 2 minutes, location of the character, possessions, stats... The system would have to compare the existing save file with the present database and write down only the changes for minimum disk access.
The good point I see is no more save function (adios cheats on save/reload), and if people must quit for any reason the time lost would be only 2 minutes max what seems to me reasonable...
Could that be possible?

Christou wrote:Hi, new here!

I was wondering if the game could auto save at a constant rate, let say every 2 minutes for example... Of course it could not be a classic save but some kind of backup of what's new pop up during this 2 minutes, location of the character, possessions, stats... The system would have to compare the existing save file with the present database and write down only the changes for minimum disk access.
The good point I see is no more save function (adios cheats on save/reload), and if people must quit for any reason the time lost would be only 2 minutes max what seems to me reasonable...
Could that be possible?

I don't see why not, and so long as this doesn't preclude multiple save files (in case a colossal mistake is made) then it sounds great.