The Drunken Lizard Pub

Sometimes I wish I knew more about the way certain things work, so I could have a better understanding of why something is occurring and how to fix it.

For example: When playing a game like NWN2 (do I mention that game too many times? I like it a lot)... the dragging and slowness of the game -- not to mention little bugs that keep me from, say, attacking someone/something or opening a chest without clicking a whole bunch of times and rearranging myself and trying again -- bothers me a lot. After a while it drives me crazy. But when I look at the Activity Monitor I see a lot of memory unused and a lot of memory locked.

My sense tells me that the OS is deliberately arranging free memory and locked memory as a sort of buffer for certain operations and also to prevent an unanticipated crash... but I'm not sure. There's an awful lot of free memory and locked memory. A lot of it. So I can't help thinking there must be a way to manipulate this.

Leopard doesn't have a program -- like OS9 did -- to allow me to manipulate -- no matter how limitedly -- the way memory is used. I've tried iFreeMem but it doesn't seem to help much, if at all. There must be a way to free up unused memory -- even if it risks the game suddenly crashing (I can monitor this anyway since the game never extends its usage much... except at the very end where it gets so bogged down with King of Shadows copies that it become unplayable because I can't make my characters do anything) that I can manage it pretty safely -- there must be a program out there that lets me free up that memory at will and then relinquish its control again to the OS. I haven't seen it on the Apple site (but then again I haven't gone through the entire list, yet, and it doesn't look like I can narrow down searches to the System/Utilities listings).

Bernie? You seem to be our resident Mac expert. Any ideas?

(edit: Perhaps the problem is that my OS is not allowing the game to utilize enough of the memory? It gets slow and choppy because the OS is restricting the memory is has access to? After 'optimization' I'm told that over 1200m of the memory is free, and on top of that some 320m of memory is locked.)

Evnissyen wrote:Bernie? You seem to be our resident Mac expert. Any ideas?

Ha ha, he calls the PC/Windows Guy a 'Mac expert.' I'm not sure whether to be insulted or flattered...

Be that as it may, being a PC guy, I really couldn't tell you much about the memory management of Windows, let alone OSX (not in super technical detail, anyway). I know that OSX generally has a very small memory footprint, ~225MB, which makes it a prime choice for installing onto netbooks via various hacks (hence the label "hackintosh"). I have a couple of G3 ibooks (and up until recently a G4 ibook), but I haven't really done much beyond re-install OSX Tiger on them along with OpenOffice.org. I've played around with the OS, but for whatever reason, the more I use it the more I don't care for it. I'm mostly familiarizing myself with the OS as a checklist feature for my resume.

There could be a couple of things going on... it could be the OS, as you suggested, that is taking over the memory and preventing the game from accessing it. It could also be a flaw in the design of the Mac version of NWN2... it might be programmed to only utilize a certain amount of memory based on what is available. The minimum/recommended memory requirements are 1GB/2GB, so I'm not sure they would put that sort of a limit... but you never know.

Some suggestions...

1. I guess I would start with... What are the specs of the Mac you're playing on? Do they at least meet the minimum reqs?

MINIMUM SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS:
•Operating System: 10.4.11 (Tiger), 10.5.1 (Leopard)
•CPU Processor: Intel Chipset
•CPU Speed: 2.0 GHz
•Memory: 1 GB
•Hard Disk Space: 6.5 GB Hard Drive Space
•Video Card (ATI): Radeon X1600
•Video Card (NVidia): Geforce 7600
•Video Memory (VRam): 128 MB
•Media Required: DVD Drive
MULTIPLAYER REQUIREMENTS:
•Internet(TCP/IP) or LAN play supported
•Internet play requires broadband connection
RECOMMENDED SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS:
•CPU Speed: 2.33 GHz
•Operating System: 10.4.11 (Tiger), 10.5.1 (Leopard)
•Memory: 2 GB
•Video Memory (VRam): 256
Supported Video cards:

NVIDIA GeForce 7600, 8600
ATI Radeon X1600, X1900, HD 2400, HD 2600

2. As I always recommend when troubleshooting, make sure you have all of the latest updates for your OS and the program in question.

3. It sounds like it also might be video card related... have you tried adjusting your video settings... ? Turn off things like shadows and anti-aliasing, reduce your resolution, etc. Sometimes even the default/recommended settings can be a bit too much for certain cards to handle.

4. Fire up the activity monitor and check not only memory, but CPU usage. I noticed on one of the G3 iBooks I was playing with, that the World Clock was constantly sucking up 15% of the CPU... and proceded to murder it. Make sure there isn't something else running in the background that doesn't need to be.

5. How much hard drive space do you have available? Traditionally if you have less than 10% free, you're going to start having problems as the page file (virtual memory) doesn't have a lot of room to work with.

6. I have yet to meet a "Memory Optimization" utility that works as advertised.

7. Check the NWN forums, if you haven't already.

8. Here's an "article" with more information on OSX and its handling of memory.

Ahh... I feel like an idiot, now. I knew you worked with PC's but I thought you worked equally with Macs, or have in the past. At any rate you've come across as somebody with notable (and admirable) Mac experience. (You've helped me in the past, after all, specifically with Mac Classic Emulation... I've come to suspect that both Basilisk II and Sheepshaver have problems working with Leopard (os10.58)... although most likely the problem is me not having a full grasp of the technicalities and so forth.)

I'm an artist, after all, not a techie.

As much as I've always wanted to be a techie as well. I just don't have the patience.

Anyhow... you said:

CrazyBernie wrote:3. It sounds like it also might be video card related... have you tried adjusting your video settings... ? Turn off things like shadows and anti-aliasing, reduce your resolution, etc. Sometimes even the default/recommended settings can be a bit too much for certain cards to handle.

Yes! I think this it: it's a video card issue, not a memory issue. In other words: I don't have a powerful enough video processor.

For the record: I've known all along, since I originally bought it, that my computer met the minimum specs all-round. Both CPU memory and video card. CPU Processor speed is 1.83g (unfortunately I can't expand it), memory 2g (again I can't expand it)... unlike os9 Apple did not provide me with a program that allows me to partition off disk space for virtual memory. I have notably less access to the System and processes than I used to have in the past.

Also, so you know: I did turn off everything I didn't need, first run through. Much later I noticed that I could increase the graphics quality and it didn't affect the speed and playability. The problems arise when I get extra animation in there, such as waving grass, water refractions, and extra characters. The more animated objects, obviously, the slower the game becomes. Just eliminating a familiar makes a significant difference. Which is why the ending becomes impossible to manage (anyone who's played the game (original campaign) all the way through knows what I mean).

I supposed I'll go through the rest of the Utilities list, on the Apple site, tonight.

Anyone else have any recommendations about good programs (free or inexpensive) I can use to manipulate memory or other processes on Leopard?

NWN2 has always been playable. I love the narrative, it really is a very well-written game (except for the end-battle which is ludicrous and highly irritating) and some of the dialogue options are hilarious ("I saved your life. That means I own you." / "Now go and do your duty, and I'll 'secure' the house for you.").

I'm seriously considering getting a PC again, next time it's time to get a new computer, unless Apple gets its act together as far as the computer market goes. There really was a time when Mac was the most advanced computer out there. Now Dell seems to be better for cheaper.

When you pay extra you expect a better product and better software. Now they even charge extra for the software complements that used to come with the package.

I still prefer the Mac interface. Yes, it's technically much faster than any PC (obviously, since the GUI interface is "hard-programmed", so to speak . . . PC's need a more powerful processor to handle Windows 'efficiently' (quotes there for a reason) ) . . . files are managed in a much better way (it doesn't store info in 20 different places; you don't have to "uninstall", you just trash the file), no crazy heirarchies, fewer bugs, smoother system... better keyboard management, a lot of little things.

Plus I've always been a Mac guy. I've always hated Windows.

Well, I bought this computer for writing and graphics, not to play games. But still... .

(EDIT: Thanks for the article link. Will read it.)

Most of my Mac experience has been come from whims and mild tinkering.

Well based on your 1.83 GHz CPU vs the minimum required 2.0GHz, you're getting a performance hit for AI when there's an increased number of computer controlled characters on the screen, on top of your sub-par graphics card.

The problem with just meeting the minimum system requirements for any game is that you can expect the minimum amount of performance to go along with it. I usually tell people to treat the recommended requirements as the minimum for a smooth gameplay experience.

As an example, I purchased Oblivion when it was first released, and my computer had above the minimum, but below the recommended requirements at the time. I ended up uninstalling the game and not playing it again until I upgraded my system because I was unhappy with the performance. I should stuck with it, because to this day I still haven't finished the game. Now every time I install it I just spend all my time playing around with mods to make the game look prettier. Then again, I've never finished NWN2, even though I've always had plenty of system for it. Gotta love that ADHD.

I'm seriously considering getting a PC again, next time it's time to get a new computer, unless Apple gets its act together as far as the computer market goes. There really was a time when Mac was the most advanced computer out there. Now Dell seems to be better for cheaper.

It's been a loooong time since Apple was "the most advanced computer." Other than that they were generally just the best audio/visual development tool with inflated claims of grandiosity. Now they're just the prettiest, though the inflated claims haven't gone away. But that's just one biased techie's opinion. After all...

Plus I've always been a Mac guy. I've always hated Windows.

The reverse of this would apply to me. But at least I've taken the time to play on the other side of the fence. Anyone want to buy a G3 iBook? It's in good condition and would make a great Apple starter system, or a kids laptop. ^_^

As far as getting a PC goes, you might want to look into psystar's Rebel EFI, preferably before Apple finishes shutting them down. You might be able to have your cake and eat it, by purchasing a chepaer Dell and plopping OS X on it. Or you could do something really crazy like actually using Windows 7... I've actually seen a few people buy MacBook Pro's just so they could install W7 on 'em. Must be nice to have money to burn...

Windows 7 has built in GPU acceleration, so it feels immensely responsive.

-Bah! HP Firebired $730. Gogo. (got windows 7 for it for $30 too! lucky me)

dare49devil wrote:-Bah! HP Firebired $730. Gogo. (got windows 7 for it for $30 too! lucky me)

Meh. Maybe if the Firebird didn't look like a wedge of cheese on a stick. Plus its integrated nature defeats the purpose of buying a PC - upgradeability. And don't even get me started on the hard drive... since when does a performance-oriented multimedia machine pack a 5400RPM hard drive?

It is nice if you're looking for a quiet, small in size media center-style machine.

CrazyBernie wrote:As far as getting a PC goes, you might want to look into psystar's Rebel EFI, preferably before Apple finishes shutting them down. You might be able to have your cake and eat it, by purchasing a chepaer Dell and plopping OS X on it. Or you could do something really crazy like actually using Windows 7... I've actually seen a few people buy MacBook Pro's just so they could install W7 on 'em. Must be nice to have money to burn...

Of course, I could also use BootCamp and run Windows, theoretically speaking, if I wanted to run Windows programs... but obviously I'd have to cut off a lot of the memory to do so... and it would drain my processing power I'm sure. (Ahem.. would my processor even be able to handle a program as huge and unweidly as Windows?) And if I can barely run certain programs on Mac, how in the world would I be able to run Windows games which're much more demanding?

At any rate... Countering my fear of permanent partition: I'd guess (let's hold off on assume for the moment, obviously) the program would allow me to switch back and eliminate the partition, but especially with computers, these days I'm hesitant to trust in anything.

EDIT: I also have a slightly old Dell Dimension L733r (these numbers, sigh...) which runs moderately old games like Diablo, and older games like Baldr's Gate... so actually I've no need for BootCamp. Which, incidentally, I've never bothered to set up (which should be obvious from the last paragraph).

(I gave my previous Dell to my brother, on which some of these somewhat newer games might actually work better... but... again, it's my brother's now.)

Moved topic. Please continue.

Evnissyen wrote: Of course, I could also use BootCamp and run Windows, theoretically speaking, if I wanted to run Windows programs... but obviously I'd have to cut off a lot of the memory to do so... and it would drain my processing power I'm sure. (Ahem.. would my processor even be able to handle a program as huge and unweidly as Windows?) And if I can barely run certain programs on Mac, how in the world would I be able to run Windows games which're much more demanding?

Well.... the system requirements on the PC version of NWN2 are actually a good amount lower than the Mac version. Now I could get all PC fanboy about that and exclaim "AHA! You Mac ain't so special now, is it!?!" but let's be civil, shall we? Clearly Aspyr Media did a hack job of porting the game over to the OSX platform. The problem in general with gaming on a Mac is lack of support and updates for games that have been ported over from PC. The very fact that companies port to the Mac seems like more of a "me too" feature than anything else.

That all being said, check out this post in the NWN2 forums. You have to weed through some Mac fanboy trolling, but the overall recomendation is that NWN2 runs better on Windows XP through Bootcamp than the native Mac port. Plus, you can play all the expansions... 0_o

Here's a quote from GamerDad's NWN2 (Mac) Review:

I started the game on a ‘first generation’ top of the line Intel MacBook Pro, and playing the game was a disaster. This computer could easily run the PC version with excellent performance under Apple’s ‘Bootcamp’ system running Windows XP, yet was very sluggish performing at lower resolution and with fewer graphical details on the Mac version. Installing the game on a brand new, fully decked out, top of the line Macbook Pro was much more satisfying … but makes gamers ask just how much it is worth to play this game.

Sure, Bootcamp has some overhead that prevents it from running at the same performance level as a straight up PC install, but since the game was a Windows game first and foremost, it got the most optimization and more frequent updates under Windows. Therefore the small amount of overhead from Bootcamp isn't enough to make up the difference for the poorly coded Mac version of NWN2.

Evnissyen wrote:(Ahem.. would my processor even be able to handle a program as huge and unweidly as Windows?)

I have to pick on this statement a little bit... I present the following:

The minimum hardware requirements for Windows XP Professional include:
Pentium 233-megahertz (MHz) processor or faster (300 MHz is recommended)
At least 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM (128 MB is recommended)
At least 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk
CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive
Keyboard and a Microsoft Mouse or some other compatible pointing device
Video adapter and monitor with Super VGA (800 x 600) or higher resolution
Sound card
Speakers or headphones

Vista is obviously more "unweildy"... but your 1.83GHz dual core processor and 2GB of memory still exceed the minimum requirements. It would likely handle Windows 7 just fine (better than Vista) as well. XP is probably the best choice for performance, space requirements, and compatibility with older games. I could point out claims that Mac users make about running Windows better on a Mac than a PC, but they are merely claims, after all.

Also, based on your statements and admitting to being un-techie, I should offer an explanation to your comment of "daining your processor power." First up, when you use Bootcamp to run Windows, you actually have to pick between Windows and OS X when booting up your computer. You're not running Windows on top of OS X, so there's no extra overhead other than Bootcamp itself when running Windows, and running OS X has no performance hit since Windows won't be running simultaneously. The biggest thing you'll run into is the need to allocate hard drive space for your Windows installation... and that's going to depend on how many games you want to install. Of course, if you leave your computer on all the time, you'll also have to reboot it whenever you want to switch.

As a side effect, running Windows under Bootcamp could also prevent you from being able to complain about being left out of game recommendations based on OS availability...

Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to convince you to "switch." However, I've always been a big fan of getting the best product for my money. With the vast majority of games out there being Windows based, I've no real reason to invest in Macs or Linux OSes other than curiosty and potential work relations. Sure, I'm biased towards Windows, but I'm more biased against people who talk crap about an OS they know nothing about, especially when they get most of their information from misleading commercials designed to sell a product...

And as I always recommend to people before making any drastic changes to your system... BACK YOUR SHIT UP!

Sorry, BW: which forum did I put it in? RPG? If so (it makes sense to me) then it was because I thought it fit in, subject-wise... but maybe not too strongly... .

Bernie:
Yeah, I also read a post on the NWN2 forums from somebody who'd installed Windows on Bootcamp in order to run NWN2, and re-purchased NWN2 for PC, and found that the PC version of the game ran much better than the Mac version. He allowed 50g on his hd for partitioning. I don't have anywhere near that much space free (though, yes, don't ask, I always have well more than 10% free). If necessary, of course, buying a second hard drive is much cheaper than buying a PC. (And yes, despite how much I prefer the Mac OS to Windows... I'm strongly considering going back to PC when it comes time to get a new computer . . . having experienced both [recent] systems and their respective software.)

(And before anyone suggests expanding my Mac, well... I bought the MacMini... knowing its limitations (it's nonexpandable, for one thing), because I already had a transferable monitor, keyboard and mouse (even new mouses are cheap, anyhow), and I liked the idea of having a really small computer that fits in the small pocket in my backpack. It really does make it much easier to transport my computer whenever I visit my folks (because I can't go anywhere without my computer).

...And I didn't expect to really be drawn into wanting to play games that were all that elaborate... ahem.

One thing: Typing on this Mac is much nicer than typing on that old PC... This old MacAlly ikey keyboard is really nice. That might not seem much to a lot of people, but I write.

Bernie wrote:First up, when you use Bootcamp to run Windows, you actually have to pick between Windows and OS X when booting up your computer. You're not running Windows on top of OS X, so there's no extra overhead other than Bootcamp itself when running Windows, and running OS X has no performance hit since Windows won't be running simultaneously.

Interesting. For some reason, I hadn't considered this. Not having to run both OS's simultaneously definitely helps.

So... I think it seems like a good idea: buying a second hard drive for my mac and assigning that for Windows and its programs. Agreed, Bernie?

...Until it comes time to get a new computer, of course. By then... I'm sure there'll be many games that won't run on my processor.

...Or on XP, the latest Windows system I actually have a copy of and so don't have to buy.

...Also, on the side: for some reason NWN is faster some days and some moments than other times and other moments. Last night, for example, I was playing NWN2 and my guy was swinging and running like there wasn't a processor in heaven. I swear I don't remember ever having seen the game so fast, and it seems to me that this is how everyone else -- those who don't have spec limitation issues -- experiences the game. I even went back to the end battle and even that battle was almost playable (with all those Kings of Shadows on the screen and all those NPC's it was still dragging). I have no idea what made the difference.

Now the game is back to its usual slothlike behavior.

Why? I can't answer that and I don't suppose anyone else on here will be able to answer that, either. No changes in processor demand that I can determine... .

$5 (or its equivalent in Euros) to the one who can!

How are you planning on adding a second hard drive if the mac isn't expandable? Surely you aren't suggesting the usage of an external drive... 0_o Then you'll really experience slow.

The random slowness could be a number of things.. bad memory, hard drive fragmentation, scheduled services, a corrupted OS... can be hard to pinpoint.

Of course I'm thinking of buying an external drive... there's no other option. $72 and I'm there. No need to buy a $586 PC. Besides: From what I've read they're supposed to be quite fast, if not equally fast as the internal.

Nevermind the USB... isn't a connection a connection?

The Mac, after all, as I'm sure you know, is far, far faster at copying files than Windows is, whether it's the OS that's responsible, the processor, or the hard drives (or USB backup drives) themselves. (Of course, I'm not talking at all about file duplication (although that seems to be faster, too), I'm talking about copying from drive to USB backup, or vice versa. Very, very fast. Therefore: why should an Mac external hard drive be particularly slow, conversationally?) A PC user hasn't experienced quick file copying from drive to USB or USB to drive until they've used a Mac. If file copying is that quick: any other conversation must be just as quick, I should think.

If it's the OS that's responsible: I'll find out, and arrange everything accordingly.

Evnissyen wrote:Of course I'm thinking of buying an external drive... there's no other option. $72 and I'm there. No need to buy a $586 PC. Besides: From what I've read they're supposed to be quite fast, if not equally fast as the internal.

Nevermind the USB... isn't a connection a connection?

The Mac, after all, as I'm sure you know, is far, far faster at copying files than Windows is, whether it's the OS that's responsible, the processor, or the hard drives (or USB backup drives) themselves. (Of course, I'm not talking at all about file duplication (although that seems to be faster, too), I'm talking about copying from drive to USB backup, or vice versa. Very, very fast. Therefore: why should an Mac external hard drive be particularly slow, conversationally?) A PC user hasn't experienced quick file copying from drive to USB or USB to drive until they've used a Mac. If file copying is that quick: any other conversation must be just as quick, I should think.

If it's the OS that's responsible: I'll find out, and arrange everything accordingly.

Umm... in a real world performance test, an external USB drive will get trounced by an internal SATA drive... the sata drive being on average 2x faster. Just compare the secifications... USB 2.0 has a max transfer speed of 480Mbs, vs 1.5Gbs for SATA-1, and 3.0Gbs for SATA-2. Then you have to consider the fact that the smaller bandwidth may be shared amongst other usb devices, potentially making it even slower. I've read some articles/posts where people have run both Windows and OS X on external drives, and while the general OS performance may seem ok (after a slow startup and adjustment period for the OS), running any performance concious applications (read: Games) is not really a good idea... it would probably defeat the purpose of your intent for doing so.

Here's a comparison of eSATA (which generally has the same performance as an internal SATA drive), FireWire 400/800, and USB 2.0 benchmarks.

Besides, from what I've read of installing WinXP on an external drive to run on a Mac, you still have to remove the hard drive so the installation doesn't select it by default. Are you comfortable taking the mac mini apart? Seems to me that if you're already opening the thing up, you'd be better off just upgrading the internal drive.

I've copied files to and from a couple of macs via USB drive, and I wasn't any more impressed than I would be doing it on a pc. You might blame it on the older G3 and G4 hardware... but I hesitate to directly compare any sort of performance in a non apples-to-apples (no Mac pun intended...) environment. To me, USB-anything is not particularly quick.

(Been up all night, since I'm leaving for my Folks in a few hours. Wish me a merry Xmas?)

CrazyBernie wrote:Installing WinXP on an external drive to run on a Mac, you still have to remove the hard drive so the installation doesn't select it by default. Are you comfortable taking the mac mini apart? Seems to me that if you're already opening the thing up, you'd be better off just upgrading the internal drive.

Just a note: Holding down the Option key at Startup (or Restart, for that matter) will allow you to select the startup volume. Apple technicians are not idiots.

However... the last sentence would be an excellent suggestion if not for one fact: it's highly discouraged that somebody who doesn't know exactly what he or she is doing opens up a MiniMac and fools around with it... considering how elaborately tightly everything is organized (it's a very small computer, after all -- smaller than my hand both horizontally and vertically, and just two inches high... though it's highly powerful, and what's more the internal antenna's more powerful than the top-of-the-line really expensive USB antenna I'd bought for my PC -- just an aside, one of the numerous things I like about Mac). For that, I'd have to bring it to a shop, which would cost me a lot of money. (Admittedly there's a place right next door, and the guys there know me... but that's not going to make them friendly enough to lower their charges... they have to make money, after all.)

CrazieBernie wrote:I've copied files to and from a couple of macs via USB drive, and I wasn't any more impressed than I would be doing it on a PC. You might blame it on the older G3 and G4 hardware... but I hesitate to directly compare any sort of performance in a non apples-to-apples (no Mac pun intended...) environment. To me, USB-anything is not particularly quick.

You might've tooled around with old G3's running OS9, but this quote suggests that you've not had the aformentioned experience with OSX... or at least with Leopard, since I can't speak for any system between 9.4 and 10.5.8 (and I didn't own a USB backup drive when I had my old G3 iMac). The difference between copying speed between volumes with Windows XP and Leopard is, I would say (by my own experience), approximately equatable to the difference between Dial-Up and DSL. When I was transferring files from my old XP to my new Mac, it took maybe about 10 minutes (at any rate, a very painfully long wait) to fill up a 256m drive, while it took a mere few seconds to copy the same data back from the USB backup onto my Mac.

There really is no question that the Mac is faster (if only a little bit in the area of basic processing, the above disregarded), smoother, much better organized (imagine having to save a program in 10 different places! And then having to run an Uninstall program to get rid of it... AND... the Uninstall program doesn't even get rid of all the traces of the file!) and less buggy and less vulnerable to viruses than Windows.

Admittedly: I understand that, aside from unresolved vulnerabilities in Windows, hackers tend to concentrate on Windows machines. I have my own speculations about this, which I won't go into. This isn't the place for speculation.

Also: like I said: while your point is well accepted about issues with XP and external drives, if I do happen to have trouble there then I can always transfer most of my files (photos, videos, music, even obsessively excess writing which I refuse to throw out) can be transferred to my external drive to make room for Windows. I'll see what happens.

There are only two problems that arise with Macintosh, both of which are serious enough to make me consider going back to PC, when it's time, despite my preference for Mac:

ONE : Mac is far too expensive and does not [any longer] justify that expense with decent software. (OS9 came packaged with excellent media software, including an excellent (for its time) graphics program and an excellent word processing program that rivaled MS Word, as well as PageMill which was a website-development program that allowed you to write and test your site offline -- very useful. Nowadays, however: Leopard comes with iWeb, which sucks . . . it's made for people who know nothing about websites and only want to set up a site to put up their family photos: it doesn't even allow access to the code! ...but then again I never found a PC program to match PageMill)

For word processing, on my Mac, I use OpenOffice -- as I did with my PC -- which is freeware and just as good as MS Word but has an annoying pagination bug (but then again so did MS Word at one point) . . . and the printing options are not as good as MS Word, oh well.

TWO : Game developers program for Windows because the market is notably larger. Mac gets scant attention.

Well, enough of me.