The Drunken Lizard Pub

Playing a mage character in the early days was very difficult, did later patches make magic=melee? I prefer mages over any other type of avatar.

I've got a new pc with Windows 7 but I just threw my XP hard drive into the new machine and Eschalon seems to work fine. Is there any reason to re-install? I've saved a game and it still seems fine.

Looking forward to Book II, so thought I'd replay Book I. I never have finished it, though I've got hundreds of saves....

Mages were nerfed back during beta testing to limit their awesomeness. However playing a pure mage isn't that bad as long as you watch mana and flee opponents when low or use lots of potions. There are a few topics giving advice on making a successful mage and which spells can make things easier for you.

I know that you can finish the game with one. I was just wondering if they ever got balanced. If one class is significantly better/worse than others then this is a sign of sloppy design. I was hoping that Tom was able to perfect his design by patching Book I. Otherwise, Book II may have the same glaring errors. As I said, I prefer spell-wielding over swords. Swords and melee combat existed in the real world and I prefer fantasy.

Mages have been redone for Book 2. However Tom never went back to correct Book 1 to rebalance it. Maybe after Book 3 he will rewrite Book 1 to the Book 3 engine and use that to rebalance the game.

Randomizer wrote:Mages have been redone for Book 2. However Tom never went back to correct Book 1 to rebalance it. Maybe after Book 3 he will rewrite Book 1 to the Book 3 engine and use that to rebalance the game.

I think we'd all like the latter to happen, but from what BW has said The Platinum Edition of Book I likely won't use the Book II/III engine, but instead will be a patched/fixed version of the Book I engine.

This whole thing is discussed here.

tungprc wrote:I know that you can finish the game with one. I was just wondering if they ever got balanced. If one class is significantly better/worse than others then this is a sign of sloppy design. I was hoping that Tom was able to perfect his design by patching Book I. Otherwise, Book II may have the same glaring errors. As I said, I prefer spell-wielding over swords. Swords and melee combat existed in the real world and I prefer fantasy.

While I can't comment on the amount of balancing needed, this "all classes should be created equal" mentality is the real flaw, if you ask me. Learning how to best play the character class you prefer should be part of the challenge. Having some classes be more difficult to master is hardly sloppy design.

CrazyBernie wrote: While I can't comment on the amount of balancing needed, this "all classes should be created equal" mentality is the real flaw, if you ask me. Learning how to best play the character class you prefer should be part of the challenge. Having some classes be more difficult to master is hardly sloppy design.

Fair enough, CB. Let me say then that games that allow powerful mages are going to get my money first. I prefer mage gameplay for the reasons stated above. Basically, I can fire a bow or swing a sword in the real world. I like doing supernatural things in my games, that's why I play fantasy. I bought Book I and will buy Book II, but I want to sling some spells and I want to have the same chance as a guy who can only bash things.

tungprc wrote:

CrazyBernie wrote: While I can't comment on the amount of balancing needed, this "all classes should be created equal" mentality is the real flaw, if you ask me. Learning how to best play the character class you prefer should be part of the challenge. Having some classes be more difficult to master is hardly sloppy design.

Fair enough, CB. Let me say then that games that allow powerful mages are going to get my money first. I prefer mage gameplay for the reasons stated above. Basically, I can fire a bow or swing a sword in the real world. I like doing supernatural things in my games, that's why I play fantasy. I bought Book I and will buy Book II, but I want to sling some spells and I want to have the same chance as a guy who can only bash things.

In my opinion, Book 1 still has exceptionally powerful Magic classes- but you have to be truly dedicated to get the most out of it. Every point you distribute must be strategically made towards improving your Mage's abilities. If you distribute points correctly, you can become a god of magick. As a player, you must figure out the best way to make this happen. The info is here, on the forums, and in the user's manual.

What Eschalon will never be is a "Torchlight" kind of game where it is impossible to make a bad character- where all "skill trees" lead to the same vanilla power character. I like RPGs where the player has the flexibility to make an exceptionally power character or a weak, sickly character. Our games will not hold your hand or guarantee that you will be successful.

If you want to take the easy route, make a Fighter. Lots of strength and big weapons...anyone can do that. But to make a quality Mage or Healer- now that is a little more challenging.

Also, while a mage can be distinctly challenging in the beginning, I found it no more difficult than a ranger. You have to be strategic early on to make the most of limited money and arrows/mana. But it's a very rewarding build.

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:Also, while a mage can be distinctly challenging in the beginning, I found it no more difficult than a ranger. You have to be strategic early on to make the most of limited money and arrows/mana. But it's a very rewarding build.

Maybe it's even easier than a Ranger build, because you can recover Mana Points by resting, but you can't get your arrows back that way.
Also, some of the best scrolls (like Supernova or Mass Boil) are almost half the price of a Composite Great Bow or something similar (also take in mind you'll have to buy some arrows).

Even if mages are weaker than melee, I'm obviously having fun. I can't tell you how many builds I have in this game. Maybe 15+? I've got loads of save games, since I move the 10 saves into a different folder and start a new batch of saves each time I tackle a new area. I should also clarify: I believe elemental magic to be weak, not divine. A divine specialist might be the strongest class in the game; especially if he takes some warrior skills too.

tungprc wrote:Even if mages are weaker than melee, I'm obviously having fun.
...

I'm now playing my first mage (without melee, mainly elemental).

I think I had more problems with a fighter than I had with a mage.
I've just fought the hive queen and it was really easy.

With my first character (in January 2008, I think) that was much harder.
Maybe it's the practice, that makes it easier to play, but I think a mage isn't weak at all.

I should also note that I was playing 1.02 until yesterday. If there were balance patches in 1.03 or 1.04 then that might also make a difference. I'm playing 1.04 now. I saw there was a 1.05 but I didn't wanna bug Tom with getting a new download. I think he just might be busy with more important stuff right now.