The Drunken Lizard Pub

I believe the skill system in Eschalon Book: II has considerable potential as a tool that allows gamers to create exactly the kind of character that they want to play. It is a flexible system that easily allows you to weave aspects of different abilities together, and use them in ways that traditional class-based systems would not allow. That is all perfectly brilliant, but I feel that the current implementation of Trainers and Skill Books becomes counter-intuitive to the process of creating and playing the characters that the player may envision.

Due to the presence of Skill Books and Trainers, a player that wishes to increase the maximum potential of his chosen skills, needs to not develop these skills at the earliest convenience. That whole idea is absurd. It generates a situation where in order to make a powerful sword-fighter the player would make a character with barely any skill at all, saving all their skill points for later and essentially playing a character fundamentally different from what they actually wanted to play, as building them as Sword-fighters from the get-go would make him miss out on the valuable skill development opportunities offered by Books and Trainers, and the maximum potential of his skills would thus be reduced.

What causes this situation is not simply the presence of Skill books and Trainers but the way that they’re implemented. The current implementation encourages the player to not “buy” skills with his Skillpoints on level up or character creation, by promising him increasing potential if he holds off on spending his points. This turns the process of character development away from an organic process and instead towards deliberate planning and calculation to squeeze the most potential out of trainers and books. I suspect this may be enjoyable to some players, but I wonder if not the game would even more fun without this niggling quirk.

Information similar to the one I’m presenting below is already around on the forums, but is used to help players make min-maxed characters. I’m not really trying to help anyone make a great character, but rather point out what I perceive to be a flaw in an otherwise great system, and further suggest remedies.

Skill Books
In the current system, getting the first level of a skill requires three skill-points, and every level thereafter costs one single skill-point. Books can be used to teach you a new skill or used to increase a learnt skill by two levels. This means that books has a greater potential for your character if you’ve not yet taught yourself a skill, as learning a new skill is the equivalent of three- rather than two skill-points.

From a realistic point of view, this may make perfect sense. Reading a book and getting hold of the theory behind a practice would quite likely be of the greatest benefit to someone without or with little experience in the topic area. However, with a more wholesome view on the character’s development it may also mean that the character that chooses to learn a skill on his own will have lesser potential than one who was taught it through the use of a book, even if this character would later read the same book. That is not only strange, but it also encourages equally quirky meta-gaming and power-gaming in order to achieve greater skill potential.

I perceive this as a problem. I don’t know if anyone else does, but I definitely do. Since I perceive it to be problematic I have a couple of suggestions for ways that it could be “fixed”.

Suggestions:

1.
Make Skill Books provide the same value of skill-points regardless of your current skill level. Since the first level of skills is equal to the value of three skill-points it would also mean that books would have to be boosted to provide a boon of three as opposed to two skill levels to the chosen skill, if it’s already learnt.

2.
Make Skill Books no longer capable of teaching new skills. Instead they can only be used to develop the skills you at least know the basics of already. If they provide one point, two points or three skill-points worth of skill levels then becomes irrelevant to my arguments.

Essentially, by simply ensuring that the player gets the same amount benefit from a book regardless of when he chooses to read it, or manages to get a hold of it, you’ll also ensure that it does have not a detrimental effect on the intuitive character development process.

Skill Trainers
In the current system, Skill Trainers will be capable of getting a skill up to skill level eight at most. Each level taught will cost one hundred coins times the Skill Level you are training it to. Learning a new skill through a trainer will thus cost 100 coins, and earn you an equivalent of 3 skill-points worth of maximum skill potential. This is so cheap that it’s affordable even at the very start of the game, and the benefits of this are so great that it renders all other options dumb.

Furthermore, you may choose to train it to level 2, 3 4... all the way to level 8. Although the cost of such a procedure quickly climbs, it’ll give you another 7 points of maximum potential in said skill, bringing the total for that single skill up to 10 points of extra potential. However, to gain the full benefit of this practice you need to be as unskilled as possible, preferably without a single skill level in said skill.

This is where our nasty problem rears its ugly head.

For example, suppose that one player decides to play a sword-fighter. He makes a character with very high sword skill, and each level up he pumps some points into it. As he plays the game, he plays the game as a fighter too – an organic process where he the development of the character’s skills and the way he’s played becomes synergistic.

Then suppose this character comes upon a Skill Trainer of the Sword. Since he’s already managed to bring his Sword skill to level 16, he will be unable to benefit from the trainer regardless of how much coins he might have amassed.

Another player, carefully deliberate and familiar with the quirky game mechanics, in his design of his character, decides he wants to play a sword fighter too. So he decides to make a character with the Pick Lock skill and… Wait! What? The Pick Lock skill!? That doesn’t make any sense at all! Didn’t he want to make a Sword-Fighter? Exactly, it doesn’t make any sense at all.

This character will avoid developing his Sword skill at all, deciding instead to save his skill-points, and instead running from enemies, picking locks and securing loot to make money and get rich. When he eventually reaches the Sword trainer, he’ll be capable of taking full advantage of the training provided, levelling his Sword skill up to level 8. At this point he decides to spend all the skill points that he’s saved up instead of putting into the Sword Skill right away like the other character did, and he brings his Sword skill up to level 23 – BAM.

So what we’ve got here is a character that’s been using the sword throughout the game, killed enemies and also bereft of many other useful skills- He’s stuck at Sword level 16, incapable of using the trainer to progress further. Then we have another character that’s never properly fought a foe or used a sword, that’s actually just a thieving rogue – leaping to skill level 23 in an instant.

Again, this is something I perceive as problematic. I dunno if anyone shares this view, but I’ll still provide some thoughts and ideas on how it could be remedied.

Suggestion:

Make Skill Trainers capable of providing a certain amount of “sessions” of skill training before they’ve taught you all that they can. The costs of the session would be tied to the session number instead of the skill level they bring you to, and the amount of skill growth you could get from them would be the same regardless if you came to them with 20 levels in a skill or completely unskilled. Supposing you had four available sessions of training, the sessions could cost 250, 500, 750 and 1000 coins, and each one increase your Skill Level by one point.

Teaching an unskilled skill could either simply use up the first three training sessions, and cost an amount equivalent to what that would have cost you, or trainers could be barred from teaching you the basics of new skills entirely.

Final Words

Again, I don’t feel that any style of play should be penalized or rewarded but that all styles of play, should perhaps not be equally effective but at least come out with the same amount of skill levels in the end – regardless of where the player chooses to spend these points. This is the basis of the opinions I’ve shared here.

In the game’s current state, whether intentional or not, I feel there’s a considerable bias towards the min-maxed types of characters and their convoluted levelling processes. Don’t get me wrong though– I have absolutely no difficulty making a powerful character, so this is no type of “Waaah, Waaah, my character sucks so it has to be someone else’s fault!” kind of post. I simply believe that solving these problems would improve the experience that many people have with the game.

It might be too late to do anything about it in Eschalon Book: II, but it’s at least food for thought for Eschalon Book: III.


Agree? Disagree? Think I’m ugly and smell bad? Think I talk too much? I’d like to see discussion on this topic regardless.

Hey, I was going to write the same complaint about skill mechanism. You described everything very well and very reasonably. I finished game without study anything from trainers, who teach my primary skills, because I had already improved them above 8 I won't pick up any skill of 15 in my next game. Then I will study primary skills from trainers up to 8, then read books boosting skills to 10 and only then start to spend skill points. Pity that it is allowed to spend up to 5 points in every skill in one levelup. This game skill mechanism really sucks, because most powerful warrior can become only from that man, who didn't spend any point in warrior skills from start.

I also agree with you, that trainers should increase skill fixed times no matter of how big your current skill is. Books should be revised too.

Hey Bernie, you never mentioned you had a brother!

(Meaning, we had discussions about this during testing, but it was way too late to make fundamental changes for Book II. Let BW finish his planned DLC for Book II, let him enjoy his great success from Book II, and then let's have some serious discussions about how best to implement most-requested changes/improvements for Book III.)

I totally agree with the original poster. However, as I mentioned in my feedback post, 8 levels of training is excessive given the low cost and ease of making money

Lhoric wrote:Hey Bernie, you never mentioned you had a brother!

Heh, I had no idea that this had already been discussed. I suppose I should've thought as much though: Given that I considered it an issue, it is likely that many others do too.

Didn't know I had a twin brother though. That's awesome... Well sort of, especially if he's not opposed to endless discussion and agrees with me on game mechanics. Then I can just sit back and enjoy the ride, without having to waste my time typing.

Awesome

Forral wrote: Suggestion:

Make Skill Trainers capable of providing a certain amount of “sessions” of skill training before they’ve taught you all that they can. The costs of the session would be tied to the session number instead of the skill level they bring you to, and the amount of skill growth you could get from them would be the same regardless if you came to them with 20 levels in a skill or completely unskilled. Supposing you had four available sessions of training, the sessions could cost 250, 500, 750 and 1000 coins, and each one increase your Skill Level by one point.

Teaching an unskilled skill could either simply use up the first three training sessions, and cost an amount equivalent to what that would have cost you, or trainers could be barred from teaching you the basics of new skills entirely.

I like this suggestion. I would take it further, and suggest that rather than being cash based, trainers would demand completion of some task, martial arts master style. Could be especially cute when training the Unarmed skill. "Take your hauberk off. Now put it on. Now take it off!"

...you had the discussion too late in the testing process of Book II to change it? Funny, because I brought it up two years ago (see point 3) when it might have helped.

Let me clarify; there were some late discussions regarding training. I'm sure there were many more discussions throughout all of Book II development, but I was not involved with the project until Beta testing. Much of the development would be considered pre-alpha or alpha testing. So by the time Beta testing is in progress, significant changes to game engine are not realistic. Beta testing is primarily to make sure the game can be played from start to finish, find any bugs, and maybe some gameplay suggestions regarding balancing. Keep in mind Basilisk Games is an independent development shop with one full-time employee. With that said, perhaps there is still time for changes before Book III enters beta

Well, while I have discussed this "fundamental change" in the training system, it wasn't because I was concerned about people taking advantage of it as an exploit. Personally, I don't pay attention to the skill trainers when rolling a character. In other words, my sword fighter starts out with swords, heavy armor, and shields. The min-maxers are gonna find ways to take advantage of the system any way they can.

I just looked at it like this: trainers are experts in their "craft," so there should always be some knowledge to impart.

So maybe not identical twins, but fraternal is a possibility...

My two cents here, because I do think that the current system is fairly good, and this side seems to be quite underrepresented.

Concerning books, I think the idea behind the "1 starting skill point or 2 growth skill points" is both linked to the existance of trainers, and to the overall complexity if choice-making(which, I think, is what the old-school fun and charm is all about, complexity, and important choices in character develoment) . The main idea behind it is that if you find the book you can either decide that the skill is currently necesary/important for you(say, cartography in earlygame, for those who didnt get it to begin, like me ) and use it right now, or wait until you have the money/progress to access the full services of a trainer and get it further than you normally could without spending your own character's hitpoints. It also makes character creation more complex, since you have to decide whch skills you consider absolutely essential, and which can wait until you find that specific book/trainer. As said, the beauty on the system lies in its complexity, since you can view it from the perspective "oh, its three points to start a new skill, so its better that way" as well as "the avantage im getting from this book is 100 gold for a new skill, instead of 1500+( price of last 2 skill levels with the trainer) gold after learning most from the trainer". It also prevents book from being too overpowered, since having skills at level 1 is frequently not THAT effective AND you have to decide where to focus your skill ponts afterwards (hence increased value at low levels), and getting three points at high levels can make a very big difference on the usefullness of said skill.


PART 2 SOON

Agh, I'm too lazy to do a complete argument on trainers, but it goes from the same argument as last. Skill effectiveness is usually a curve(or so I've heard), where low level increase does not give much, and high level does, so for initial levels with low cost, it makes sense, it lets you try ont the different skills, get a little bit out of everything, but if you really want to get the most out of a skill( like, say, alchemy), you have to decide to FOCUS on it, with your skill points, and that is not something you can do with every one of them. And offcourse you may eventually want, if you are going to be an alchemist character(or not) you could want to wait for the trainer to save those skill points or use them on something else, and the first option is going to make the game quite hard until you reach the trainer, while the second one will have you specialized on something else, and will probably be in a level which is higher than the one you will be able to reach by trainer. Another point is that training skills is very expensive(at least in early/mid game) so you cannot afford to get everything at the first time you reach them, and will have to give up spell purchases/skill points in merchandising for this. Heh, what do you know, I was not so lazy after all .

In any case, to sum it up, the fact that the skill efectiveness happens on a curve, makes it so that early level acquistion by trainers/book are not as important to character development as your choice is skill usage, which I would asume to be a good thing (deeper, more complex character creation).
And it promotes diverse skill usage(richer game experience) ,while limitng your possibilities to get an uber-powerful jack of all trades(you still can though, you can always exploit the system, and figuring out how is part of the magic for some). I do have issue with the fact that there are no trainers for every skill, since it promotes early development of those skill which have no trainer, but thats another discussion.

Thoughts?

I like the skill system as it is too.

It is possible to make a swordsman with 1 in swords and wait for the trainer, but it is possible with any skill.

And well, going through the game till the trainer with 1 in swords (without magic) would be impressive enough (running isn't playing :p).

While it's possible to wait until the trainers, most players won't go that route. It requires prior knowledge of where to go and a way into Port Kuudad. Then you have to raise money to pay the 3600 per trainer per skill. Even few players are going to want to sit there and farm food to raise the money. While they exist, if you want to go that way then fine. Otherwise the trainers exist for players that just want to build up a few skills and not exploit the system.

I strongly agree with the topic poster.

However, this same feedback was given after book 1, and what was the result? The impact of trainers was INCREASED -- in book 1 they only trained up to 5 levels, now they train up to 8. Really?

Yet another uncanny similar with some of the least explicable "features" of Spiderweb Software games.

Randomizer wrote:While it's possible to wait until the trainers, most players won't go that route. It requires prior knowledge of where to go and a way into Port Kuudad. Then you have to raise money to pay the 3600 per trainer per skill. Even few players are going to want to sit there and farm food to raise the money. While they exist, if you want to go that way then fine. Otherwise the trainers exist for players that just want to build up a few skills and not exploit the system.

My hat's definitely off to those players because the trainers sort of scream: "Exploit me! Exploit me so hard!" It doesn't take any mischevious little min-maxer cooking up elaborate plans to see this. When I first encountered the trainers my reaction was something along of: "Uuurgh? Huh? What the hell? Why would they stick a feature in the game that encourages you to abuse game mechanics?"

Some would probably consider me one of those little min-maxing devils and it's probably true. I have a past of tinkering with various D&D builds down to the allocation of every single skill-point, after all.

However, to me this is so glaringly and openly abusable, that choosing not abuse it is a bit like chosing to go to battle with a cheese grater instead of a battle axe. I'd have to willingly gimp my character out of pride- which is a horrible and cruel choice to inflict on your loyal customers, I may add. It's especially cruel, as the technical work of ensuring that it can't be abused isn't very time consuming.

If Skill Books always gave the same benefits regardless of when read, and if skill trainers offered the same benefits regardless of when used- there is nothing there to actually abuse - is there?

Would that detract from the game?

I don't feel it would. Quite the opposite, actually. I think it would allow the player, min-maxer or not, to properly enjoy the game without feeling the need to plan his progression into minute detail. To explore, to experience, and to play the character he envisioned from the start and to the end of the game, regardless which skills said character may be using.