The Drunken Lizard Pub

Hi all.
I'm new to this board and to EB (both 1 and 2) but not to RPG.
I'd like to ask veteran players an opinion on my best way to enjoy most RPGs and what do you think aobut this and EB2.
In a RPG i try to get the more immersion i can. And i usually do this following the rule that reloading is not so real. In party RPG i use priests to resurrect dead party members, except the ones (like in Baldurs Gate) that were killed beyond the point of resurrection.
But in EB2 i don't see the point in reloading. If you die, you stay dead
I really like the idea for challenges and i love the hardcore rules (will be a must for my playstyle), but i think another good rule will be to not reload on a death.
This way it will take a loong time finishing the game, but it will add a lot to immersion.
So, do you think this will be ok or will it be too difficult to play this way??
My first character will be a dagger thief, with high dext and speed and enough int and perception to cast mage defensive spells. I'll not use armors trying to reach one of the goals that i think complement better a thief.
Thanks for your opinions.

It really depends, I suppose. Did you play Eschalon Book I? From the sounds of it, I think not..?

If not, you'll die. Then you'll probably die again.
But all things considered, if you play carefully, it is entirely feasible to play through an entire game without dying. I don't think I've been struck by anything that can be considered a "Death by default", like in many other games.

I played book one only once...and died
But i didn't use the rule, so i finished the game. I used book one to learn the basics of the game and because, in a trilogy, i like to play book one before book two, even if it was not strictly required...

It is certainly feasible to play through Book II without ever getting killed. Neither of the two characters I've completed the game with ever died (though at one point my mage was down to 1 health when I got stupid). You just have to be careful. A rogue character with no ranged attacks will have a MUCH tougher time of it, though. A well constructed mage or ranger is much easier to get through a first play-through without dieing.

I'd like to see an "ironman" challenge for Book III that gives you nethack-style save games. Auto-save on exit, auto-load when you start the game back up. One slot only, and no way to load an old game.

Immali wrote:My first character will be a dagger thief, with high dext and speed and enough int and perception to cast mage defensive spells. I'll not use armors trying to reach one of the goals that i think complement better a thief.

I think you're saying you want to invest in Piercing Weapons, Hide in Shadows, Pick Locks and Elemental Magic, right? Perhaps also Skullduggery.
I believe these are good choices. All these skills are strong. I would recommed putting your skill points mostly in these instead of spreading them out more.
Piercing Weapons you'll want at level 10 for the special weapon feat, Hide in Shadows is becoming fabulous in the 10 - 15 range, Pick Locks is already useful at lower levels and you don't really need that higher than 15 or so as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'mage defensive spells'. The spells that boost your defense, like Leather Skin, are available a bit later, while offensive spells like Fire Dart are available almost at the start. Those offensive spells would suit your character better if you don't want to wear armour. Staying ranged is really strong in this game.

I share your choice for playing hardcore, for me that's the only way to play this game.

SpottedShroom wrote:I'd like to see an "ironman" challenge for Book III that gives you nethack-style save games. Auto-save on exit, auto-load when you start the game back up. One slot only, and no way to load an old game.

My favorite feature in Nethack regarding that is your old character leaves his/her gear behind for you to grab ... and 80% of it is cursed. So your new character can get a big boost from his predecessor's stash, but still has to be careful about what to use unless there is a ready means to identify and uncurse the stuff. Else, that big boost could just turn out to be cement overshoes.

But, that said, this kind of game would probably be tedious to play that way (hm, much like Nethack can be, to be perfectly honest). It's too easy for a single mistake to ruin the game or get you killed, and the only way to discover those mistakes is to make them. Like the Sentinel trap in Hammerlore: if you don't know it's coming, and aren't prepared, chances are you are going to die, period. The only way to know it's coming without spoiler sites, is to get that far and actually die (unless you are really lucky). If I couldn't reload after something like that, I would quit the game in disgust and never look back. "Permadeath" mechanics in a game require it to have a much lower incident of instant death scenarios.

wow- playing this game without ever reloading ... you guys are really good.I actually die very often in this game- and to be honest- without being able to reload and to consult this forum i´d probably given up very early.When i was an pen and paper game-master-lots of years ago, we played by this rule.a character died and he was dead.period. so the player had to come up with an reserve character- as an game-master i also had some extra chars prepared for this situations.The new character would then be introduced to the party in the next opportunity- an imprisoned hero in the dungeon- an lonesome wanderer which would join the group,etc...
but in this game we just have one hero- and he cant die because there is nobody else that could substitute him... so if you die its game over and you actually do an new character and start it all over again...no reload. wow.
that´s quite impressive,i must say.I doubt that i would be able to do this.

I would like to emphasize that this would just be an option, for people who like to be super-hardcore. Yes, traps like the sentinel stalk room and the necromancer's altar would likely be deadly, but that's what you're signing up for. I would be very, very impressed if someone were able to beat what I expect from Book III in this mode without restarting or consulting spoilers.

Still, if it were there, I think I'd use it.

Yeah, actually: my ranger rarely actually dies, unless I'm being really careless . . . sort of a change from Book 1. Book 2 did seem, to me, a little harder than the original, at the beginning... but now at level 9 it's easier, and generally, I think, maybe even easier than Book 1, at least in terms of the 'threat level', anyhow. In Book 1, of course, there were just fewer things to worry about.

...Or maybe it's just rangers that end up being safer by getting to keep a distance so much of the time. ...And spellcasters, I suppose, though I've yet to see.

My character's got plenty of hit points, so I don't really have to pay much attention to the health bar. I never even use the health potions, any longer. I did at the beginning... don't really seem to need them lately, though.

Of course: I figure it's good to keep them in my quickslots, just in case... .

SpottedShroom wrote:I'd like to see an "ironman" challenge for Book III that gives you nethack-style save games. Auto-save on exit, auto-load when you start the game back up. One slot only, and no way to load an old game.

No, no, no! Bad idea, Shroom, Bad!

This reminds me of those games where that sort of thing is hard-coded and you can't change it -- no saved games, only saved progress. Honestly, I could never play those kinds of games, these "You die and that's the end" games by developers who think it's cool to drive players crazy.

Which game did I play once that was like that? I don't remember the name, and it's not in my bookmarks. But... it was a sort of modern-day RPG (non-fantasy) (one of your weapons of choice was a handgun, in other words), with primitive green computer lettering and dithering, and your 'mission' was to enter some sort of underground facility where people had been infected with some sort of lethal disease, or something. The first thing you had to do was somehow get by the guard and his jeep -- with words or by force -- and then go inside and shoot or stab things . . . and when you died it was Game Over. Real annoying.

The engine was pretty similar to the Infinity engine, if I remember right. Dithered edges and everything. Isometric.

Does this game sound at all familiar to anyone?

I suppose it can get you to pay really close attention to what you do, to make sure you don't do something stupid, which is something interesting in itself, I guess, but... still, there's always that "if you die it's all over" thing hanging over your head, so you know you can be almost at the end of the game and get killed somehow and you're going to have to start from the beginning again.