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Feedback on Book 1 demo (SPOILERS)
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 2:06 pm
by DGM
First let me get a bug report out of the way: the concealment penalty for fighting in the dark is bugged. If you light a torch, the concealment penalty isn't dropped until you take a step. If you light up and then immediately attack something right next to you or wait for a target to approach, you still get penalized.
Now, my thoughts:
THE GOOD
Nice character creation system. Simple, yet very flexible.
I like having various non-scripted ways of dealing with problems (bash, pick, find key).
Enemy AI is good. They do a decent job hunting you when you flee and trying to flee themselves when badly injured.
The graphics and sounds are well done. Gives an immersive feel.
THE BAD
Walking around is far too slow given how big the maps are and the occasional need for backtracking. An option to at least double walking speed would remove a lot of the tedium.
The TAB button should highlight everything you can interact with (not just monsters) and should highlight them more. Think of Diablo 2, and the way objects on the ground would actually glow when you pressed ALT.
On a good LCD screen I can see in the dark well enough to navigate dungeons. Even without that I can still see the automap and my position on it. I can take on a dungeon using torches only to eliminate the combat penalty. When in the dark, the map needs to fade to total black and the automap needs to switch off.
Speaking of the automap, I resent having to pay skill points for the use of it. Convenience features like this shouldn't be charged for.
Some detailed numbers on the effects of each attribute and skill would be good.
Spells that allow bashing (like Fire Dart) make magic too powerful and versatile. Ambushes aren't nearly frequent enough or nasty enough to stop me from effectively getting unlimited mana through resting, which means I have no need to risk weapons or lock picks to remove obstacles. There really needs to be some kind of balancing factor to keep me from alternately blasting and sleeping my way through the entire game.
The random chance to find hidden things is bad. Once I know where something is (either from a previous game or a walkthrough), I can just wait next to it until my character spots it. Instead of a random chance, how about a fixed requirement? That way I'd still have to pay for the privilege of finding things.
THE JUST PLAIN COOL
Taking on 3 Fungal Slimes to find out how bad they could be, and barely getting away with only 4 of my 44 HP left. Then getting jumped by more Slimes later after a Bloodsipper had savagely beaten me and running for my life again.
Getting jumped by a wave of Fanged Salamanders on my way back out of the Blacksmith's celler, much to my alarm... Only to laugh as I watched them get ground up by the same traps that I had evaded earlier.
Wanting to know who my character really is and why he would voluntarily wipe his own memories. The amnesia plot is so overdone that even pointing out what a cliche it is has itself become cliche, but I have to admit I'm actually interested.
Re: Feedback on Book 1 demo (SPOILERS)
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 2:10 pm
by cubgrace
DGM wrote:First let me get a bug report out of the way: the concealment penalty for fighting in the dark is bugged. If you light a torch, the concealment penalty isn't dropped until you take a step. If you light up and then immediately attack something right next to you or wait for a target to approach, you still get penalized.
Now, my thoughts:
THE GOOD
Nice character creation system. Simple, yet very flexible.
I like having various non-scripted ways of dealing with problems (bash, pick, find key).
Enemy AI is good. They do a decent job hunting you when you flee and trying to flee themselves when badly injured.
The graphics and sounds are well done. Gives an immersive feel.
THE BAD
Walking around is far too slow given how big the maps are and the occasional need for backtracking. An option to at least double walking speed would remove a lot of the tedium.
The TAB button should highlight everything you can interact with (not just monsters) and should highlight them more. Think of Diablo 2, and the way objects on the ground would actually glow when you pressed ALT.
On a good LCD screen I can see in the dark well enough to navigate dungeons. Even without that I can still see the automap and my position on it. I can take on a dungeon using torches only to eliminate the combat penalty. When in the dark, the map needs to fade to total black and the automap needs to switch off.
Speaking of the automap, I resent having to pay skill points for the use of it. Convenience features like this shouldn't be charged for.
Some detailed numbers on the effects of each attribute and skill would be good.
Spells that allow bashing (like Fire Dart) make magic too powerful and versatile. Ambushes aren't nearly frequent enough or nasty enough to stop me from effectively getting unlimited mana through resting, which means I have no need to risk weapons or lock picks to remove obstacles. There really needs to be some kind of balancing factor to keep me from alternately blasting and sleeping my way through the entire game.
The random chance to find hidden things is bad. Once I know where something is (either from a previous game or a walkthrough), I can just wait next to it until my character spots it. Instead of a random chance, how about a fixed requirement? That way I'd still have to pay for the privilege of finding things.
THE JUST PLAIN COOL
Taking on 3 Fungal Slimes to find out how bad they could be, and barely getting away with only 4 of my 44 HP left. Then getting jumped by more Slimes later after a Bloodsipper had savagely beaten me and running for my life again.
Getting jumped by a wave of Fanged Salamanders on my way back out of the Blacksmith's celler, much to my alarm... Only to laugh as I watched them get ground up by the same traps that I had evaded earlier.
Wanting to know who my character really is and why he would voluntarily wipe his own memories. The amnesia plot is so overdone that even pointing out what a cliche it is has itself become cliche, but I have to admit I'm actually interested.
I love the spending of points on the automap.
Re: Feedback on Book 1 demo (SPOILERS)
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 2:19 pm
by Amasius
cubgrace wrote:I love the spending of points on the automap.
Yep, me too. I spend my first 6 skillpoints into cartography and it makes quite a difference.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 2:27 pm
by Asharak
Yeah, the skilled-based automap is probably my favourite feature so far.
I could see an argument for making the most-basic (currently 1 skill point) level of it free, but I wouldn't like it changed any more than that. Drawing accurate maps is a hard thing to do, and it makes sense as a skill.
- Ash
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 3:12 pm
by PhilosophiX
The skill based auto map is one of my favorite features too.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 3:29 pm
by Tiavals
While it's a nice touch, it is more or less meaningless. You only waste valuable skillpoints or money to advance it, both of which could be used for something useful. I doubt anyone plays the game without having 3-5 points in Cartography, thus making it essential, which defeats the purpose of a free-choosable character skillset.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:06 pm
by Saxon1974
I agree the walking is a bit slow, there is the quick travel options for some of the locations once you have discovered them. It would be nice to have a run option that burns endurance more quickly.
So far Im loving the game though, sound and music and great and I like the turn based combat and the lighting effects in dungeons and at night.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:17 pm
by moldar
Speaking of the auto-map costs, is there an upper threshold to its effectiveness? I'd hate to shell out 10 skill points, if it stops being useful at 8 . . .
I'd also like to second the request for 2x walking speed. One of the things I first looked for in the options was something like that.
All in all, though, a great game. Already got the full version bought!
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:24 pm
by vid
I agree with the infos about the skills and their levelup. One should be able to see what effects a levelup of a skill actually does.
Also a mouse-over info for all skills would be great.
some more points:
- the player marker on the minimap should be a little bit more visible.. often i can only recognise it when moving (it could blink or something)
- the cartography skill should have more important effects on the gameplay. maybe you could allow carthographers to set user-markers on the map to mark important areas?
- during night or when in a dungeon the background of the minimap is too bright, at least on my monitor.
- i too would like a highlight all important / useable items on viewport button. maybe you could couple this with a skill? (carthographer/spot)
- when ill or poisoned, i would like to see the effects of it on my stats. in a mouse-over-attributes maybe?
- MAYBE! (its an oldschool game) you could implement the now standard compare-function in inventory. for example if i mouse-over a sword in my inventory show a second window with the stats of my sword i am using right now for easier comparison.
- i would like to see a button which sorts my inventory by item category
- likewise i would like to have autostacking of new items in my inventory.
- one thing that happened to me was that i sold a questitem to a shop. later, after finding out that i have to get it back, it was impossible to do so, because apparently the shop owner already sold it to someone else.
-> so, questitems should not be allowed to be sold.
(btw. would it be possible for the programmers to "hack" the item back into my inventory when i send in my savegame?)
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:25 pm
by DGM
After some further expirimentation, I've concluded that it isn't just spells like Fire Dart that are unbalanced. The bashing system itself seems flawed.
Make a strong enough character with maxed out Unarmed, and you can break down pretty much anything with no risk. I just had my level 1 Fighter break down the door on the second floor of The Minotaur (the deserted inn in the first village) with his bare hands. Yeah, the door made of heavy oak and steel. And there was no weapon breakage or penalty of any sort.
It isn't too hard to make a character who can blast his way through obstacles for free.
EDIT: How about the chance to attract trouble from the noise you make by bashing? That sort of thing is impossible to do quietly, after all. Ambushes in the wilderness and dungeons and locals turning hostile in towns might balance things out.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:44 pm
by BasiliskWrangler
DGM wrote:Make a strong enough character with maxed out Unarmed, and you can break down pretty much anything with no risk.
Is this unbalanced? It's a fantasy world...can't an exceptionally trained martial artist smash down doors with his bare hands causing nearly as much damage as a mace?
The goal of Eschalon was to create a world where you can make any character you want and go pretty much anywhere from the start. I can only think of a couple areas where keys are truly necessary. All the other doors you can smash to hell if you want.
We can always address balance issues in patches. I suggest playing further into the game before we discuss ways to balance the game for overly powerful characters, but I appreciate the feedback!
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 4:54 pm
by DGM
BasiliskWrangler wrote:
Is this unbalanced?
Well, let me put it this way: if it's
not unbalanced for a 1st-level character to be able to break down almost anything without risk, why have weapons and picks break? What purpose does that serve, if
not to put the brakes on players who want to simply smash their way through everything?
Why is it okay for magic users and martial artists to get through obstacles for free, but not the thief or the axeman?
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 6:34 pm
by BasiliskWrangler
DGM wrote:Why is it okay for magic users and martial artists to get through obstacles for free, but not the thief or the axeman?
Ok, I see what you are saying. Yes, putting it this way, there may be some balance issues that need to be addressed in relation to bashing and class types. I'll tweak this a bit for 1.01.
I appreciate the feedback, and please let me know if you come across any other inconsistencies.
Posted: November 19th, 2007, 7:11 pm
by Sabin Stargem
Well, I suppose there are four ways to deal with locked objects.
A) If brute force is used, some or all items would be destroyed, while some doors may have traps or be extra reinforced. Of course, crucial items can't be destroyed unless it is to be part of an quest.
B) To simply disallow brute force for opening chests and doors at certain choke points in terms of skill/weaponry.
C) Make the task time consuming...but that is how it is already.
D) Make certain doors or chests have features that may make them more difficult to force open - say, rune-warded doors that reflect magic or chests that turn into monsters if attacked, but won't if unlocked. Might be a good idea for Book II if it fits in.
In any case, here is my opinion of the demo - the game holds promise, but the demo is too short in my opinion. I can't complete all of the quests I had gotten, nor enter the crypt to figure out why my character went for amnesia. It kind of turns me off, so I am waiting for more reviews or a longer demo. That said, here are the good and bad points I have noticed...
-Walking is too slow, and I would like a way to speed up my travels to portions of the map I have already cleared. What I suggest is to click on an uncovered sport of the mini-map, initiating quick-travel to the selected point. No, I don't mean the town-warp, I just mean for the known area. Cartography could especially help with that.
-I would like forests on the mini-map to become an different color with enough cartography skill. Right now, the color of trees is the same as uncharted territory, which is confusing.
-On the topic of good stuff, the lizards appearing and trying to cross the trapped area in the basement was clever...and showed something to players that usually isn't taken into account in most games. Kudos for the fact that traps don't care about anyone's 'side'.
-An way to make multiple quick-keys for spells would be nice. I suggest making the eight boxes in the lower-right to be 'quick boxes' for items and spells, by dragging and dropping the right spell at the desired power level to the box. The lower-left of each box could have a small number indicating the appropriate key to select it, while the upper-right indicates mana cost or number of objects/uses.
Posted: November 20th, 2007, 9:35 am
by tungprc
Sabin Stargem wrote:-An way to make multiple quick-keys for spells would be nice. I suggest making the eight boxes in the lower-right to be 'quick boxes' for items and spells, by dragging and dropping the right spell at the desired power level to the box. The lower-left of each box could have a small number indicating the appropriate key to select it, while the upper-right indicates mana cost or number of objects/uses.
This is doable already. Just press a number key at the same time you press okay when selecting a spell. You can have up to 10 spells readied at the same time. It's almost mandatory with my healer/mage character.