The Drunken Lizard Pub

We are knee-deep in the middle of implementing side quests for Book III, and of course we want to keep the feel of the game as close to the other two as possible. The topic raised here in the studio was "what are player's most memorable/enjoyable moments in Book I and Book II?". We want to make sure we are focusing on the same elements in Book III that everyone enjoyed so much in Book I & II.

So, what moment or feature of Book I / Book II do you think was your favorite?

The lycanthrope quest was one of the best ones in the series. You have to make a really difficult decision.

SPOILER ALERT!
I always killed Xed.. Zeb... whatever his name was, because he is much easier to kill.

Wow, that's really not an easy question because there are so many great moments. In Book I, I love heading into Vela the first time and finding your brother. The whole one man against an army feel of that assault is great. I also love attacking the Goblin Citadel when the giants come to help.

I love the moments of surprise in Book I and II when slimes pop up as you try to loot particular places.

I love the discovery of odd things in little hidden spots in the forest or caves or wherever. Where you can almost create the little story of how those poor schmoes wandered into the wrong place and the wolves/slimes/whatever made lunch of them. Or some clever person hid their loot where surely NOBODY would be brave enough to wander.

In Book 1, I like the Lighthouse with the puzzle of figuring out how to reach the top with the surprise when you finally restored the light. Too bad the boat wasn't useable.

I still like the long journey through a dungeon where you don't know how far it is to the exit like Book 2's Hammerlorne.

One of my favorite wow moments is the first time you see the Hive Queen in Book I. Her scale relative to that of the Hive Drones is just great. And, the way you can maneuver around to avoid a direct battle with her is terrific.

Also from Book I, the bridge over the chasm leading to the secondary water gate has great graphic appeal. Ditto for the land bridge in the rift area in Book II.

And, from Book I, having three difficult ways to get to Blackwater is fun. The most obvious choice isn't always the best for each character.

Also the puzzles associated with Shadowmirk and Lorewitch are great. And I loved the hopping into space in the Farrock extension in Book II. It was fun to get a payback for putting points into Cartography.

From Book II I especially like all of the levels and hidden passageways in Port Kuudad. There was so much poking around and exploring to do there. The last thing that pops to mind was how proud I was of myself for finding the sewer entrance in Port Kuudad because I didn't have a Citizen's Writ.

Westwillow (I really liked this one), The currupt priest sidequest (book 1), Lycanthrope quest.

Also things like the necromancers shrine in book 2. Stuff out the in the middle of nowhere to find. Also there's nothing like those "oh crap" moments to remind you to save often.

Lord_P wrote:
SPOILER ALERT!
I always killed Xed.. Zeb... whatever his name was, because he is much easier to kill.

The innkeeper can take care of the lycanthrope with no issues, I usually kill both, more money that way.

This is probably going to sound really stupid to some people, but I have always really liked the Wine Cellar (quest) in Book I. It comes early in the game, but I think it was really key to establishing the "atmosphere" and "ambiance" of the Escahlon series for me. Also, I think the Wine Cellar dungeon quest is just really well designed, in how you have to keep doubling back and retrace your steps in order to open a new "part" of the cellar, and how you are forced to eventually go to every corner of that cellar in order to solve the Quest. I think it's almost a near-perfectly designed dungeon.

Similarly, I also like the Cartographer's Salted Coast quest in Book I, as it forces you to go up against superior forces (Thugs), early in the game, when you are over-matched, and forces you to go after their stronghold strategically, and do so in a really cool, different (geographic) area.

Similar to the Wine Cellar in establishing game "ambiance", I have always thought that the ruins of Grimmhold were an absolutely awesome part of Book I. (More of the grandeur of places like Grimmhold (and Hammerlorne), please!!)

Of course, in Book I, I also liked Vela, and the Barrean Mercenary hideout. And the Ossuary.

Painted Lady wrote:Also from Book I, the bridge over the chasm leading to the secondary water gate has great graphic appeal. Ditto for the land bridge in the rift area in Book II.

I will absolutely second this - I too really liked way the game used the background graphic in the under-Grimmhold level, and probably even more in the chasm crossing in Book II (where the experience is enhanced with your character having to fight off the flying Rift Harpies).

Quest-wise, in Book II, I think I most enjoyed Westwillow, the Assassins' areas under Port Kuudad, and especially Hammerlorne. (If you can duplicate something like Hammerlorne (but make it easier to get loot out of!!) in Book III, I will personally be quite pleased!! )

Random thoughts:

- Going with the Rift Harpy idea, in general I would like to see more flying (i.e. non-terrain grid-blocked) opponents like this (and bats, etc.) in Book III - basically Mobs that can attack from any direction, even "blocked" forest and mountain grid-squares...

- There need to be more totally hidden (i.e. visually invisible to the player (on screen), and only findable with high "Spot Hidden" skills...) secret passageways in these games - there was, IIRC, just one in Book I, and none(??!!) in Book II.

- Book III is when we should meet some of the "Big Wigs" in the Escahlon world. For example, we didn't meet the Chancellor of Mistfell in Book II - we should be meeting with NPCs of that level in Book III.

Random criticisms & suggestions:

- Port Kuudad came the closest the Eschalon series has ever come to creating a fully "lived in" city, but even it was "under-stuffed" IMO (i.e. needed more NPCs, even generic ones). Related to this is that all of the "pubs" in these games need to be stuffed with a few 'generic' NPCs.

- The one area in Book II that I though was really "under-stuffed" was Picaroon Isle. That absolutely should have been packed with more "pirate" NPCs, a couple more local Quests (and probably a hidden dungeon area in the forest area to the East; and probably more land to explore on the Mainland to the West of Picaroon). I guess this is really just my repeated plea that I really hope there's a proper "pirate town" (preferably on an island like Picaroon) in Book III.

- I also think the "early quests" in Book II were relatively "uninspired" compared to those in Book I. I dunno - maybe it was just that the early quests in Book I were so good. But, in any case, I would pay attention to those early Book I quests for Book III - those early Book I quests really elevated that game.


That's it for now.
If I think of anything more, I'll post later...

Book I: It's been several years since I've played it, but I remember how exploring that long hall stretching through the woods made an impression on me (Grimhold, I think?).

Book II: While playing my first character, I had spent all my gold on arrows and food early on. I remember exploring the world a bit and realizing that I might not be able to make it, that I might run out of food and arrows and die. Deciding to push on with that uncertainty while descending down into Westwillow for the first time -- and knowing that loading on older saved game wouldn't necessarily help -- was easily one of the most thrilling gaming experiences I've had.

Lord_P wrote:The lycanthrope quest was one of the best ones in the series. You have to make a really difficult decision.

SPOILER ALERT!
I always killed Xed.. Zeb... whatever his name was, because he is much easier to kill.

I do the same, but never turn in the ring. +2 wisdom ain't nothin' to sneeze at!

Oh, yes, you also asked about features that were our favorites. The movable explosive barrels are among the best, IMHO.

I wouldn't mind if you could make most of the barrels movable, though I could see where that could be a problem as they can hold other items inside them. You'd have to calculate on-the-fly the adjusted weight of the barrel or it could become a cheat for carrying really heavy stuff.

Lots of people have already mentioned many of my favorites, but:

• The giants helping invade the Goblin citadel in Book I
• The underground repository in Book I. Great atmosphere and setting. I'd love it if we got to go back in Book III!
• Real consequences for doing things "wrong," as recently discussed in another thread - getting thrown to the eyes in the underground repository, having the thugs come after you when you take the sword from Lilith's vault and then give them the key, the snow wolf attack on Durnore, etc.
• Not really a "moment," but accessing second area of the Port Kuudad sewers - the trapped house, visiting the second floor of abandoned houses, etc.
• The portal leading to the room full of sentinel stalks in Hammerlorne
• Most of Fathamurk, especially the trail of journal pages

The Assassins in Port Kuudad - figuring out the right combination of stealth, magic shielding and aggression to sneak my way past and then sneak up on them and take them out in small numbers (or failing that, run past and hide out until I could pick them off).

Lorewitch - I was so proud of myself when I got past the 'open one gate but the other one you need closes' and then when I beat the dimensional eye!

Hammerlorne - so sorry for killing off all the poor Dwarves, but definitely felt a great sense of accomplishment when I made it out with the Crux.

Let me also take a second to throw in some 'props' for Shadowmirk from Book I - I also really liked the entire Shadowmirk experience, esp. when you get to the level with the wizard apprentices (though that level could have been improved if 2 or 3 of the apprentices were actual fully-fledged NPCs (i.e. with some dialogue) rather than having them all be the "generic" NPCs like they actually were in Book I...). Anyway, I really liked Shadowmirk experience, from the entry-area on.

(Lorewitch, OTOH, I didn't care for nearly as much as Shadowmirk - outside of getting past the Sentinel Stalks to get to the entrance, which I do like a lot - but that's maybe just me...)

moveable explosive barrels, definitely.

Hidden objects.

werewolf quest for sure.

books that give a skill or 2 skill points if you alredy have that skill.

these are a few of my favorite thiiiiings

The very first Dungeon in Book1, in the abandonned town. Simple and effective, really liked that one.