The Drunken Lizard Pub

So at first I thought the new forage was more immersive. and in theory it is.

abstractly, it makes more sense to find things as you walk around.

but functionally, I experience poorly wrought for gameplay, especially when trying for challenges. allow me to elucidate.

I had repair 1 and two rings. I use my bow feat alot, because I don't like monsters to eat my ranger.
so my bow is always getting damaged.

occasionally I am getting damaged. so repair/rest is good.

if you are trying to get true ranger/true alchemist especially, this is what happens:

You want to repair your bow. but you might be low on food. then you have to walk around in circles to find food. then you eat food.
then you sit to repair.

under the old system, you would sit/rest and watch your hunger bar. not perfect. but when you stopped resting you could see what food you found.

personally I think the MOST immersive is this: resting would not only let you repair but not change your hunger bar:
"rest" involves sleep, relaxation, pack management, scratching your butt, EATING, DRINKING, walking around your SAFE surroundings for alchemy ingredients and food. rest is not "I fall into coma sleep and then get up" psycho-socially rest involves both sleep and grooming activties that one does not do "at work."

the meta-reason people like the new forage, I believe, is that it makes the game harder.
why do men especially like it when a game is harder?

*********even more theory******

look to the works of noted shame theorist Dr. Brene Brown. She has studied the concept of shame for years. for women the matrix of shame is complex. conflicting values about being a pefect woman/body, a great mom, a great worker, a great daughter, etc. No so for men. For the most part, the shame complex that men seek to avoid since we evolved from neanderthals is "to not appear weak." for each man this is different. some must be financially strong to not "feel weak." For others it is physical, and others it is intellectual. Think of all the nerds and perfectionists you know. Why do so many have to "one-up" people or prove they are experts or "top your story?" It is an sub-conscious need to appear strong.

how does this apply to games?. men feel more successful in games if they beat it at harder levels. The big question becomes: was the challenge actually challenging, or just a grind/pain in the butt? I think there are mutlipe reasons people beat challenges and for some challenges/hard things on games, it is purely for fun of it. I beat skyim on master level for fun. But have beaten other games/challenges that upon self-reflection the only real joy that was had was when it was done and I seemed "strong/cool/did it!"


relation to fast travel and forage:

Personally I think you should be rewarded for NOT using fast travel OR FOR using fast travel. you should be rewarded for not using it because it is immersive, it slows game down, you stop and smell the roses, you may see more things etc.

you should be rewarded FOR using it because it is a great tool and humanity evolved to use tools. to not use a tool when it is efficient and you want to is maladaptive. But gamers feel pressure on bulletin boards everywhere to not use fast travel. Why?

a) because some people really enjoy not using it and sing its praises and that is good and fine.

but ALSO b) some people avoid their shame matrix by proving they are "better gamers" by not using it. I wonder how many people don't use fast travel not because it makes the game more fun for them but because semi-consciously they think it makes them a "better stronger/cooler gamer" I have felt pressure to not use fast travel. it is especially strong in eschalon because you can be rewarded for it. I tried to not use it and I found that what I actually enjoy is not fast travelling all the time (which I used to do) or never fast travelling but a mixture.

some of you may be thinking "if you wan't to use it then just do, forget what other people say."

Aha! you are falling into the shame matrix. the meta-theory behind the above statement is "Strong people/men are captains of their own fate/don't heed others/are STRONG and DO WHAT THEY WANT, dude."

this ignores the fact that we evolved as social creatures that are constantly recieving subtle sub-conscious cues from our social groups. That we have an innate urge to feel a part of groups as it is a survival trait to be part of a group (less likely to be eaten by tiger in a group!) It also ignores the concept of the shame matrix, which is a subtle puzzle for each of us. Our innate desire to Avoid feeling/looking weak, especially when one is not given to self-reflection, does not make it easy to "hey dude just do what you want."

(imagined rebuttal: "but hey dude just do what you want" )

(me in my head: ok, you did not understand or internalize the concept of shame theory. just move along. next post.)
end theory.

kelticpete wrote: when you stopped resting you could see what food you found

Well, except that in Book II you couldn't find food with the Forage skill.

ah, sorry, shroom, my facts were wrong. i stand corrected. how did you get food in 2?


I should have stated that though I was comparing and contrasting 2 to 3, I was also getting into the abstract of "what would foraging be like" thank you for spotting my fuzziness. I wrote too fast.

kelticpete wrote:ah, sorry, shroom, my facts were wrong. i stand corrected. how did you get food in 2?
[...]

You could buy, loot or create food (the latter with the corresponding spell only).

Calathon wrote:

kelticpete wrote:ah, sorry, shroom, my facts were wrong. i stand corrected. how did you get food in 2?
[...]

You could buy, loot or create food (the latter with the corresponding spell only).

thanks for the info. that helps.

as it relates to how forage works for a true ranger, was there a true ranger in eschalon 2?

kelticpete wrote:So at first I thought the new forage was more immersive. and in theory it is.

abstractly, it makes more sense to find things as you walk around.

but functionally, I experience poorly wrought for gameplay, especially when trying for challenges. allow me to elucidate.


the meta-reason people like the new forage, I believe, is that it makes the game harder.
why do men especially like it when a game is harder?

I never played 1 or 2 so I don't mind walking around foraging but it is a bummer that you get hungry when you rest. it seems like resting would be a good time to eat/gather berries and stuff.

as for the long theory. lol! I read it all. I think you are right at first I thought I don't have "shame" but I do hate to look weak. and I have done challenges achievements in games just because it makes me feel like a "better gamer" even though I know no one ever looks/cares. wierd. the brain is weird. are you a psychologist?

Jon Snow said:

As for the long theory. lol! I read it all. I think you are right at first I thought I don't have "shame" but I do hate to look weak. and I have done challenges achievements in games just because it makes me feel like a "better gamer" even though I know no one ever looks/cares. wierd. the brain is weird. are you a psychologist?

thanks for reading it! I wondered if anyone did. I actually have a Masters in divinity not psychology. But I studied Brene Brown while working as an intern as a hospital chaplain. really was helpful for for relationship with Sig Other. we know what causes each other to feel "crap/shame" and like the other day when she said something about life I said "when you mention that part of our life I feel weak/shamed" and so she understood why I was defensive. it really helps.

Back to gaming. yeah. I still complete achievements just because OCD or to be "bad-ass" I admit it.

I dunno it's pretty simple for most people I'm sure. I use fast travel because it's convenient. It would be pretty goddamn annoying to have to walk everywhere. Walking everywhere is fine when the areas are still new but eventually it's going to get tiring. Although hardcore OG Morrowind fanboys would disagree I'm sure.
(Rolls eyes.)

On a side note I think it would be pretty funny if a game with a huge game world (that doesn't have a fairly quick way of moving around like in GTA) was released that had an achievement for never using fast travel. Like, imagine Skyrim with no fast travel/carriages. Wow. I would feel pretty bad for people that care about achievements. Thank god I don't.

Une wrote:I dunno it's pretty simple for most people I'm sure. I use fast travel because it's convenient. It would be pretty goddamn annoying to have to walk everywhere. Walking everywhere is fine when the areas are still new but eventually it's going to get tiring. Although hardcore OG Morrowind fanboys would disagree I'm sure.
(Rolls eyes.)

On a side note I think it would be pretty funny if a game with a huge game world (that doesn't have a fairly quick way of moving around like in GTA) was released that had an achievement for never using fast travel. Like, imagine Skyrim with no fast travel/carriages. Wow. I would feel pretty bad for people that care about achievements. Thank god I don't.

"I use fast travel because it's convenient. It would be pretty goddamn annoying to have to walk everywhere. Walking everywhere is fine when the areas are still new but eventually it's going to get tiring."

I completely agree. I love fast travel. correction. I used to love fast travel. But I completed eschalon 3 using journeymaster no fast-travel. (why? because you will starve as a ranger if you fast travel. did it get tiring. holy bejeezus yes. I learned to turn off v-syn to speed walk.) so now I am madly in love with fast travel and want to have its babies.


"it is pretty simple for most people I am sure" -- statment that minimizes the importance of the minority of the people considered "some" because they are not the most. who matters? "most people" the comment shames those who might not think it is simple.

"Although hardcore OG Morrowind fanboys would disagree I'm sure.
(Rolls eyes.)"

another shaming statement. I also find the arrogance and cliche-ishness of extreme fanboys irksome, but to denigrate them does not make it better, and in fact, negative comments about fanboys just makes them more "in group" oriented.

kelticpete wrote:
another shaming statement. I also find the arrogance and cliche-ishness of extreme fanboys irksome, but to denigrate them does not make it better, and in fact, negative comments about fanboys just makes them more "in group" oriented.

LOL "shaming statement" you sound like frasier! not in a bad way. but you are right. people on the internet are too negative about other people. no judgements. thinking about what you said, one of the reasons fanboys are so annoying is that subconsiously being the way there are makes them feel masterful/strong and part of elite group. So really if you see it that way, that they are just trying make it in this world, and feel good about themselves, it is easier to let go of the fact that they act like douche-nozzles. cause they do.

One thing I would like to suggest. Perhaps this is the place to do it. maybe not.

It would be nice for the ranger class if you could make your own arrows. Doing so would require a moderate level of both forage and repair. The higher your levels in these, the more deadly arrows you could make.

I really like the Ranger class, but it seems quite underpowered in the series. So another thing to help this class would be to allow the creation of different types of arrows. Poisoned arrows, using venom. Flaming arrows using lamp oil, etc.

Perhaps I should start a new thread on this.


Also, regarding foraging - I have seen a suggestion somewhere that travelling near rivers should allow you to fill your water skin(s). I agree with this, but there should be a small change to get toxin or disease from drinking that water. Also, if you make camp and it is raining, it makes sense that with the forage skill you should be able to gather rainwater to drink.