Excellent post on Quarter To Three

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Yep that's correct. He could also say, "don't buy that piece of crap". The author just lost a sale, but maybe that was the best thing. Have you ever bought a game which was so bad you only installed it, playd an hour and uninstalled? I know I have, and it sucks. Not only did I loose money I also gave them to someone who made a crappy game who may now have the money to make another one ;( ..

I'm not trying to justify anything. I just really hate being ripped off ;( .. That library with games sounds sweet, unfortunately we haven't got one (atleast I know of) around

You hate being ripped off by spending $30 and an hour or two of your time, but don't mind ripping off a group of people who have spent hundreds of hours and thousands (or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands) of dollars developing and releasing the game? Interesting.

I've bought bad games before. I avoid those developers now. Just as I've gone to restaurants (even world-famous restaurants) and been served what I consider to be lousy food. There's a particular world-famous Hungarian chef who makes what I consider to be inedible goulash. I don't eat at those restaurants (or any restaurant where that particular person is the executive chef). It's called voting with your feet.

As for your first point about the pirate telling a friend not to waste money on a particular game, alternately you have the game reviewers, who either bought the game or were given a copy for review purposes, who legitimately do the same thing, without anybody ripping anybody off. If you find a reviewer with taste similar to yours, support that person by purchasing recommended product through his/her site, so everybody profits.

There is absolutely ZERO legitimate excuse for illegally using or disseminating another person's hard work. You wouldn't want people doing it to you, clearly.

[realmzmaster]

Rollor,

You mean like the guy who got a pirated copy of Titan Quest and said it played like crap because the copy protection screwed up the file. He then told all his friends that the game was crap. But, he failed to tell them that he had a pirated copy and that why it played like crap.

I read the reviews and played the demo of Titan Quest. I went out and bought the game. Never had any problems playing it. It was a great game along with its sequel. Because I had a legal copy and legitmate recourse from the publisher.

I bought Silverfall by Monte Cristo published by Atari. The copy protection they used screwed up the legitmate copy, but I worked with Atari and was able to install it. The game was at best adquate. But, I learned not to buy anything made by Monte Cristo. I did not rip them off. It was a life lesson and I dealt with it.

Yes, there are bad games, but pirates do not care. Pirates rip off the good and the bad. They simply do not wish to pay for the game. In my opinion that makes a pirate a thief.

Or they cry that the game is too expensive as justification for their theft. Well, I cannot afford a copy of MSOffice. Guess what, I use Open Office and I donate to support them.

You cannot afford a copy of the game, do without. I have a family. We cannot afford to go out to movies evey week. Guess what, We decide to scarifice other entertainment and got cable. We pop popcorn and tune in the amine channel. I have not and never will buy a bootleg copy of a movie.

There is no justification for piracy, theft or illegal activity. Call it what ever you want. People suffer when someone rips off their work.

[Rollor]

You hate being ripped off by spending $30 and an hour or two of your time, but don't mind ripping off a group of people who have spent hundreds of hours and thousands (or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands) of dollars developing and releasing the game? Interesting.

I don't see it as me ripping them off if they made a bad game. If I don't like the game I delete it and they wont get my money.

I've bought bad games before. I avoid those developers now. Just as I've gone to restaurants (even world-famous restaurants) and been served what I consider to be lousy food. It's called voting with your feet.

Call it what you want but it sucks. For me it's not necessary to do it that way. I can use my money only on things I like and I love it that way . Good game = I buy it, bad game = I delete it ..

You mean like the guy who got a pirated copy of Titan Quest and said it played like crap because the copy protection screwed up the file. He then told all his friends that the game was crap. But, he failed to tell them that he had a pirated copy and that why it played like crap.

Ofcause not and tbh stuff like that happens very rarely in my experience.

I'm all for the "if you havn't got the money, then live without". I just don't buy crappy stuff if I don't have to.

[realmzmaster]

Rollor,

Of course I am sure you do not provide copies of the games to your friends, especially if they are crappy games! Except one man's junk maybe another man's treasure.

If you do provide a copy of a game to your friends I am sure you encourage them to buy the game if they like it and delete it or return it, if they do not. Because if they did not buy the game, delete it or return it, wouldn't you or any one in your position be morally aiding and abetting a thief. Something to ponder, IMHO.

[Rollor]

Where I get my games from I don't have to upload so thats not a problem, futher more I haven't got a cd/dvd/blueray/whatever-burner .. So only if the games are so small that they can be mailed I never give to friends. If I mail a game it's usually some of those classics which for some unknown reasons haven't become freeware yet

[Dr. G]

I for one had enough of this, I live in a country where people can only dream of buying origianl games, you know what we do?... we we usually put money togheter (it takes like 5 or 6 people) and we buy the game!!!!, then we play it taking turns.... and usually fotocopy the manuals, maps, or any other material.... So please stop arguing (sorry for misspelling) PIRACY IS THEFT!!!! No matter it is a good game, or a crappy one, no matter it is a Huge producer or a small Independent one!!!!! You want to have fun with a game? you have to pay for it, else no one will make good games anymore..... How much do you pay to go to the movies???, and you usually have 1 hour fun (if the movie is good that is) sometimes the movie is crap!!! but you already payed, this kind of game gives you like 40 hours (or more) of lots of entertainment I think it is fair to pay a price for that.

[acoustibop]

Good for you, Dr G!

[Rollor]

and usually fotocopy the manuals, maps, or any other material.... .

If you want the manual go buy it. As far as I know it isn't legal to fotocopy a manual and hand out. Or is violating copyrights on books less of problem for you ?

[acoustibop]

If the manual and maps are considered part of the game (which is a very reasonable assumption), Rollor, then Dr. G and his friends are only copying a small part of the game - which is not against the law in most countries. It is usually legal to copy a certain part of a copyrighted work (AIR usually 10 - 12% or a chapter). And considering they're trying very hard to avoid copying the entire game and to stay within the law, despite the fact that it would be so easy not to - you're a fine one to talk, aren't you?

[realmzmaster]

Rollor,

I am sure if Dr. G and his group were able to buy the manual separately, they would. Some companies sell their manual separately. Some companies allow their manuals to be placed on-line. Many manuals can be found at replacements.doc. Other companies have pdf's of their manuals for download from their web sites. And as Acoustibop stated:

It is usually legal to copy a certain part of a copyrighted work (AIR usually 10 - 12% or a chapter).

The law is broken when you try to copy the main part or a substantial amount of the copyrighted work. The manual is useless without the game. But, I can certainly play the game without the manual. Therefore the game constitutes the main part.

[Dr. G]

We do pass aorund the manual, so we usulaly fotocopy it when we are reallly eager to play (IO suposse some of you might know by now, that reading about the game before playing it makes you want to play it a lot more). But we do have the .pdf in our computers. we usually don't print it because printing is pretty expensive too, unless you print on a dot matrix printer, and it looks crappy.... (a printer cartridge costs around 35-40 USD which is what you pay for an average game so the desition is obvious)

[Rollor]

If the manual and maps are considered part of the game (which is a very reasonable assumption), Rollor, then Dr. G and his friends are only copying a small part of the game - which is not against the law in most countries. It is usually legal to copy a certain part of a copyrighted work (AIR usually 10 - 12% or a chapter).

I didn't see it that way. You're maybe right, and it doesn't really matter since no one is ever going to have to challenge it in court or anywhere . I asked about it on a filesharing forum( of all places ), and they thought it would be illegal to copy the manual and share it.

you're a fine one to talk, aren't you?

Ofcause I only wrote it to provoke abit. I know what he do will be considered "better" in most eyes . The point was that graduating illegal in this case is stupid IMO. It's the same law you break either way.

[acoustibop]

Not only better, but also probably quite legal in most countries. I actually have to deal with copyright issues at work and, although it mainly involves buying and providing support for various copyright licences for local schools, you can't help picking up a bit about copyright law. So I suspect I may know a little more about this than filesharers - who, almost per se, are not going to give a monkey's about the law.

[Rollor]

Well there actually are a few with high education in the legal system on that board. They are not all teenagers with empty pockets .. Anyway I think you might be right. That would make sense . Unfortunately i've to come to hate the copyrights so I always expect the worst . Old games "never" going to be freeware and someplaces you have to pay license if you are listening to the radio at your workplace

[acoustibop]

... Old games "never" going to be freeware...

I have to say that I agree with that: when companies hang on to old (but often great) games that they have no intention of ever re-releasing or using in any way, that stinks. Unfortunately, it's their legal right to do that. I would like to see something written into copyright law to the effect that if you don't exercise your copyright (i.e. continue making the copyright item available, under whatever terms) you lose the copyright. It won't happen, though...

... and someplaces you have to pay license if you are listening to the radio at your workplace

That's not unreasonable in itself; those are copyrighted works and the producers of those works have the right to earn from them. The right to use most music and written works (in the UK, anyway) can be purchased under blanket licenses from a few agencies that have the copyright to music, recorded music and written and graphic publications sewn up between them. There are also blanket video licenses you can buy, but no one company administers the rights for the majority of titles, unlike the music and written works agencies. There's also an agency that sells licenses for recording radio and TV programmes off air, but this is specifically for educational use, and there's even a company that sells the rights for the performance of hymns! At work, we administer blanket licenses for four of these agencies for the LEA (Local Education Authority) and liaise with another one that invoices schools directly.

However, in recent years these agencies have generally become more aggressive and some are clearly cooperating with others to drive prices for blanket licenses up. Here, however, it's not the concept of copyright, nor the artists/writers etc holding the copyrights that are responsible for this: it's specifically the companies administering the licenses.

Are you seeing a pattern here? Essentially, it's not the producers of works, nor the concept of copyright that causes the real problem. It's companies who've discovered they can make money out of this. That's why in essence I don't disapprove of copyright (although I think the copyright laws could be made much fairer) nor blame the producers of works, and why I disapprove of piracy - piracy usually hurts the producers of works much more than the companies making big money out of copyright, and that isn't right.