Obama or McCain?

[Mongolian]

McCain's been flopping far more then Obama in the past 6 months, but flopping doesn't really seem like a pro/con here. As for which client will help the most economy is for sure. I don't eithers plan, but I do know McCain knows nothing about the economy judging from what I've heard him speak.

[Necromis]

McCain has not been flip flopping at all lately. He has changed some views he had from many years ago. It is not like Obama who changes his views week to week. McCain has fare more experience dealing with the economy and government spending. I think the one thing being put out there that is trying to say McCain doesn't know anything about the economy is being badly misquoted. He spoke at a meeting and had a world famous economist with him, he jokingly said, "I don't know much about economics, lets let.....(insert name).....answer that question." McCain has led a lot of sentate reform on spending and earmarks. Obama said a a year and a half ago that the surge would not work, now he says he thought it would work but cost many lives, he changes his view to whatever is *in* at the moment. He has said he would pull the troops out immediately, then it went to 16 months, then to 20. He says that all military persons he spoke to said the surge would fail, but never once spoke to the General in charge of the efforts in Iraq. Obama is all fluff and charisma, and has no substance to his campaign. I have yet to hear him outline what his policies are, only small bits and pieces.

[Evnissyen]

Ahem.

McCain has a long, distinguished Senate record of inconsistency. Whenever McCain changes his mind on something, people praise him for his "maverick" tendencies.

I would be interested to hear the means by which McCain's supposedly extensive resume of experience on economic issues (not to mention foreign policy issues) can be described. I do not see it. Granted Obama does not have extensive physical or educational "experience" in either area, either, but he's intelligent, informed and prescient, he understands constitutional law (he taught it) and he possesses several other important qualities that McCain does not:

1. Thoughtfulness and caution.
2. Cool-headedness.
3. Organization skills. We saw this especially in his last campaign which defeated the two biggest names not just in the Democratic Party but in American politics. Hillary's people made a big stink about the "undemocratic" nature of caucuses, which was not an unfounded complaint... but Obama's people realized early on that causes are won by good organization. His campaign had good organization in excess. Right now: We see Obama and his campaign quite well organized, well-funded and quickly responsive, while McCain seems to be bumbling around and even occasionally seems befuddled and confused when asked questions. He doesn't know whether to embrace conservatism or liberalize his platform to target moderates. Recently he's also had to revamp his campaign... which is never a good sign.
4. Applicable knowledge, and personal (and intellectual) drive. Obama studied constitutional law at Harvard and taught it in Chicago. He became president of the Harvard Law Review in his second year and graduated with honors. McCain went to a naval academy and graduated with no distinction.
5. Communications skills. You might wish to deride his speaking ability as "fluff", but don't you ever forget that FDR's ability to speak to the American people and calm them down during a national crisis was important in stabilizing the government and the nation. Remember that people were panicking because of bank closings (sound familiar?), and FDR needed to convince them that their money was safe in those banks and that the government was going to take care of them and ensure that their finances would remain safe. (That's just one example of how the free market can fail. The government needed to step in and close all the banks.) During an economic crisis -- which I believe we are now on the threshold of -- we need a skilled, charismatic communicator who can manage the situation capably and put us at ease. Can McCain do this? Has he even put our allies at ease?

For these reasons it would probably be a tragic error if America elected McCain to the presidency during a time of true instability and near-crisis due to Republican deregulationist and laissez-faire policies. We're only now beginning to see the disastrous affects of the Bush Administration, and we cannot trust McCain to change it, let alone have the intelligence or foresight or knowledge or perspective or even the political willingness to make the correct changes, if really any changes at all. I'm almost sure McCain wouldn't've been nearly as bad a president as Bush/Cheney has been, but at this moment we cannot afford another bumbling, incurious, half-informed, disorganized lazy guy running the country.

...Especially if that person belongs to a party owned by the very forces who are causing the economic crisis.

[Necromis]

Words that have no substance are meaningless. FDR's speaches are secondary to the harm he caused during that time frame. His actions with the governement actually caused the depression to deepen rather than get better. Bigger government causes more harm than good. McCain is not inconsistant, unless changing your view point after several years is inconsistant. He normally will stick to his guns even if it costs him. Look at how he was on trying to push the immigration bill through. However, he heard from the people that they didn't want it, and as an elected offical representing the people he has listened and is looking for a better solution. Obama has a bad history of surrounding himself with the wrong people when it comes to advisors, and he has no experience what so ever. I am surely not voting for a person that cannot even make the right choice of people advising him just because he can read a telepromptor.

[Evnissyen]

And McCain's flip-flopping on the immigration issue because of the opinions of the Latino population is different from other politicians... how?

(And remember: Obama's position on Iraq, on Afghanistan, on Pakistan's harboring of Al Qaeda (well, would you look at that! It turns out he was right!) have been constant and his previous warnings have proven correct. McCain, it turns out, doesn't even know the difference between the Czech Republic and the long-extinct Communist union Czechoslovakia. (He said it on at least two occasions: it wasn't simply a slip.) I think I'll go with the man with careful and accurate judgment, a cool head, a head full of facts, organizational and social experience, intellectual stamina and a personal will to tackle the ills of society and the world at a time when these issues are far too difficult than they should be. (I know whom I can thank for that.))

On immigration, Biden had it correct: The government needs to go after the companies who employ illegal workers. You need to take care of the cause of the problem, not build a very long and expensive and eminently penetrable wall.

As for surrounding yourself with the wrong sorts of people... need I bring up McCain's own pastor problems? That is... the ones who spew hate speech about Jews, or Muslims, or Catholics, or homosexuals, and/or just about anybody and anyone? James Dobson, Rod Parsley, who else? I forget all their names, they all seem to run together; there're so very many of them. At least Pat Robertson hasn't been speaking for him, yet... so far as I know.

Oh, and as for the Depression . . . wow. Instead of making this post any lengthier by giving you a long-winded explanation of what was actually occurring back then, as well as the demonstrated evils of unregulated Capitalism, I suggest cracking open that history book. Besides, it doesn't seem as if there are many other people reading these posts who are confused on these issues.

I just have to add that, honestly, these free-market people are just a little more than delusional. (Buchanan still believes that the civil rights problems in the South would've worked themselves out through the free-market . . . e...ven...tually....) Sure, it's nice to believe that the free-market can be a self-perpetuating social glue that can magically solve any social or physical ill... and that we the People are not obligated to do anything more than participate in its holiness for everything to work out just fine... honestly, it does sound wonderfully simple and almost utopian. Unfortunately, it does not reflect, and threfore cannot address, reality.

Well...

I was going to post about Obama's recent nuclear disarmament pledge, but was sidetracked a little, here. Maybe I'll start a new thread... maybe it'll provoke some interesting discussion.

[Mongolian]

I'm gonna go off in a limb here and say probablly that anyone responding to this post is probablly way above the average mind in understanding who is the best candidate. And even at that, no one has pricely pointed out which candidate will help out and how with the economy the best as a depression is nearing.

Bottomline? People are going to do what they always do, just vote on the candidate based on their image. "The image" of what the candidate wants you to think as it doesn't matter what they will do for the most part. Our wonderful bipartisan system really iterates spending money gives you better opportunities and that if you want to win, you can't be the good guy.

[Necromis]

Hmmm, McCain didn't flip flop on immigration. He was offering a plan that he thought would work, and when the people decided against it he listened. Obama right on Iraq? You have to be kidding, the same Obama that said the surge won't work? Obama has no clue when it comes to Iraq and the middle east. He is just now trying to go there and learn. Little late for someone who wants to lead the country. If you want to know what McCain's ideas for the economy are go to his website, his plan is very detailed and would work if put in place. It is a lot better than Obama's raise taxes and governement handouts. Look at the democrats foolish ideas currently going on. Another stimulus package that will put us deeper in debt. Refusing to allow drilling for oil while we work towards alternative energy......it goes on and on and on.

Capitalism does work to help the economy, it just needs some MINOR assistance now and then. Look at the boom in the economy and tax revenue when Bush lowered the tax rate. You think the economy will get better if Obama raises the taxes?

On religious endorsers of McCain, he denouced them, and didn't take them. He does not even associate with the persons you claim to be his advisors. This is far different from Obama who kept defending a hate filled pastor until it was no longer politically expediant to do so. Obama has changed his views in weeks let alone over 6 months to a year and a half. He is all charisma and no substance.

Maybe we need to have him elected so we can truly see how bad the country can be run. Jimmy Carter reminded us of what can happen when you let the wrong inexperienced man into the position.

Please understand I do not mean to say you don't have the right to vote for Obama, I am sure there will be large number that do. I just urge people to see the light of day and realize that right now the wrong choice for this country is Obama.

[realmzmaster]

I just urge people to see the light of day and realize that right now the wrong choice for this country is Obama.

The wrong choice? Now that is a matter of opinion.

Jimmy Carter reminded us of what can happen when you let the wrong inexperienced man into the position.

You are right! But then the country made the same mistake and put George W. Bush in the White House (twice)? I am sure both Carter and Bush had the same lack of experience before they became president. Bush was govenor of Texas from 1995 to 2000 and Carter was govenor of Georgia from 1971 to 1975. But Carter also served in the Georgia Senate for two terms. I do not believe that Bush ever served in the Texas legislature. In fact Carter also had a good military record serving in the Navy (made Lieutenant), which was cut short because of the untimely death of his father. Bush's military record is less than distinguish.

Come to think of it, Ronald Reagan had the same credentials. He was govenor of California from 1967 to 1975. He served in limited service due to his nearsightness. But he did make the rank of Captain and his unit helped produce 400 training films.

I think you are right Necromis! Inexperience makes for bad presidents. Or maybe it just the nation that picks bad presidents. (my opinion).

I do know whoever gets this job has to get the American people behind him and help heal a divided nation. The nation will be divided no matter who gets in office. This president will not get the 100 day honeymoon. He has to hit the ground running. Some say McCain is the man, but not if he gives us more of the Bush line. Some say it is Obama, but he will have to explain how he will do it.

So people vote for the person who you think represents you the best! This is what it all boils down to anyway.

[Evnissyen]

Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama are not at all comparable. With John Kerry the comparison would be more apt: both Carter and Kerry are intelligent, both have foolish streaks, neither one made / would have made a 'strong leader'. Obama, on the other hand, is no fool. He's certainly no naïf. He´s a very shrewd, calculating politician, and I have every confidence he´ll be as shrewd and calculating as president. Other people might´ve been surprised that he changed his mind about public financing (and remember -- McCain was equivocating on the issue himself and made his final decision, like Obama, on purely financial grounds), but I was not at all surprised, or offended. Obama is also no wimp. So... you cannot effectively compare Obama and Carter.

As for government handouts... you mean like the $trillions in handouts Bush gave to corporations? You mean the corporate welfare which McCain wants to make permanent? You should make up your mind: Are you for tax relief or against it? Obama's against tax relief for the wealthy . . . McCain, like nearly all Republicans, is against tax relief for the lower class, and though the explanation of his "economic plan" on his website is rather vague: besides the fact that it is full of "government handouts" to the middle class (which Obama supports), there is a segment in there that seems to suggest a flat tax, which would tax everybody at about 20%, even the lower class who, obviously, cannot afford it.

As you say: All of these tax cuts that McCain is proposing will only put us deeper in debt. The government needs revenue, and only the upper class can afford to pay that revenue, at this point in time. I'm sorry if you and/or your family belong to that group and feel offended, but it's simply the way things are. If Society is good to you: be good to Society. Give back some of what Society's given you. Robert Reich likes to describe the graduated taxation system as "an equal share of the pain". I think that's apt. Nobody likes to pay taxes, but it's necessary. The best solution of the taxation problem is to graduate the system so that everyone pays what they can afford. That's simply fair.

On Obama's prescience: He predicted, like many of us, that an invasion of Iraq and subsequent toppling of the government would plunge the nation into civil unrest and make it a breeding ground for terrorism.... which rather quickly proved to be the case. Afghanistan: He warned against abandoning it too soon. Now we know that because the Bush administration stopped paying more than minimal attention to Afghanistan: the Taliban has reestablished a foothold there. Pakistan: During the primaries he suggested that he was willing to invade Pakistan should it turn out that they were harboring Bin Ladin and Al Quaida, as seemed to be the case. For this he was treated to some degree of outrage, especially from Hillary. We now have intelligence suggesting that Al Quaida and Bin Ladin are being harbored within Pakistan.

In Afghanistan: Obama went there to speak to the actual officers. During McCain's 8(?) visits to Iraq, he did not bother speaking to the officers, who contrarily wanted to speak to him and tell him what was "really going on" there. He wasn't interested in hearing about it, he only seemed interested in the photo-op of him walking through a 'secure' and 'remarkably quiet' marketplace in his bulletproof vest. Plus, his failure to demonstrate an ability to differentiate the Sunni from the Shiia was not encouraging. He had to be corrected by his sidekick Lieberman. So... did McCain go to Iraq to "find out" anything? Apparently not. Perhaps he assumed he knew everything already. Obama, in contrast, chose to behave as a prospective world leader should, and begin visiting other nations to listen to their thoughts and concerns about America's role there; to visit the American officers in Afghanistan and Iraq and listen. Not simply walk though a painstakingly secured marketplace, in a bulletproof vest, for the sake of a photo-op.

I really have no confidence in McCain's grasp of foreign policy. He has not, so far, demonstrated that he has any special understanding of foreign policy.

And... as for the "surge".... its so-called "success" has always been illusory. Had you taken a closer look you might've noticed that the disputing factions have simply decided it wise to lay low for the time being and wait for the Americans to declare victory and leave... after which they'll simply get back to business, this being: fighting over the oil reserves. The Shiites have the numbers, the power and the reserves. They will not give anything up to the Sunnis, which means war. So far, the Kurds have been sitting back and letting the Sunnis and Shiites fight it out. All the Kurds want is Kirkuk, and then to secede. The Shiites won't give them Kirkuk, which means war. Don't be fooled. Any current relative 'peace' is just that: current.

Joe Biden was correct on this issue as well: There can be no more unity between the three factions, so they must be separated, and there must be an Arab oversight committee that will distribute the oil equitably between the Sunnis & Shiites... after Kirkuk is conceded to the Kurds.

Oh, and finally: Bush's handouts to Corporate America have been very nice for the corporations. The rest of us have not seen anything but reduced employment opportunities and a government that can barely function. Instead of this: We're paying taxes for dead Iraqi's, wounded Americans and already-wealthy CEO's and Wall Street traders. So I ask: What economic boom? And raising taxes is obviously only part of the answer to fixing the economy (in other words: increasing revenue to reduce deflation of the dollar)... the rest of it is appointing people in your cabinet positions who actually know what the heck they're doing.

And finally: Yes, I'd like to be able to agree that anyone can vote for anyone they wish to, but the fact is that I don't believe that. Bush's lack of leadership and the incompetent fools he installed in his cabinet and expensive war he's waged and all our well-earned taxpayer money that he's chosen to redistribute to the Wealthy have all done terrible damage to this nation. Because of the war in Iraq and the extended tours our soldiers have been forced into, we barely have a viable army any longer, not to mention the fact that he's depleted our National Guard for the same cause... all of this being potentially dangerous. We saw how long it took the National Guard to respond to the disaster in New Orleans, for example. ...And... I would hate to see somebody like McCain become president and continue these policies of corporate gifts and wasteful spending, and devaluation of the American dollar, and lost jobs, and lost pensions, and failing banks, and high oil prices, and careless pollution, and gimmicks that mask a lack of sound energy policy, and the evisceration of FEMA, and bankruptcy insurance denied everyone but corporations, and the erosion of the living wage, and relaxed poison controls for our drinking water, and the attempt to redefine of the term "nuclear waste", and the attempt to privatize Social Security, and the attempt to destroy Medicare, and the attempt to eliminate Medicaid . . . I remember all of this stuff . . . and spying on the American people, and the indefinite holding of foreigners without evidence, and the politicization of our justice system, and torture, and a generally rampant lack of corporate regulation, and on and on and on... because while too many Republicans, unfortunately, do not seem to care about their fellow Americans who do not happen to be wealthy or else do not happen to be Christian (or Christian enough)... I actually do care about my neighbors and their welfare. Sorry.

[Mongolian]

Beautiful post, Evnissyen. Finally someone spelled out the issue. A friend had told me McCain supports giving tax breaks to the upper class/corporations and I cringed. Yes, i realise we need to reward business to stay in business, but it's far easier to get richer when richer and far more difficult to climb the latter being in the lower class. I suspect a vast majority of people who think the opposite have never actually been there.

What really angers me, is it does completely seem like Obama really knows his stuff when it comes to the issues, yet the fallicy is McCain has soooo much "experience". I suspect Obama doesn't commit to issues is because he knows it will lead to less voters, which seems like every typical person running for president. I really think Obama will use this power smart, where in sharp contrast, Bush&Clinton among many other presidents loved to pretend to the American people everything was ok and do the worst thing possable.

No Obama can't jump through hoops. He's just a normal guy who actually has the possability of making the right choices. I know we're just getting another 4 more Bush years with McCain, even with their differences.

[Evnissyen]

Thanks. I don't want to come across as rude or some kind of jerk, so I guess it's probably pretty close to being just about time for me to shut up... it just annoys me when people make wild and insupportable accusations against people who want to do good and have that ability, and people who try to defend cruel and destructive policies. The reasons why so many people who do not have lots of money do this I'm still not entirely sure, though of course I have some thoughts.

I think the media's in a terrible bind in this election cycle.... Conservatives accuse them of being on the Obama bandwagon simply because Obama has been more media-savvy... so the media, sensitive about how "objective" they're coming across, responds by going easy on McCain and being more critical of Obama. If McCain's problematics... including the experience fallacy you brought up, as well as his inconsistency, as well as his seeming confusion when asked tough questions (which he tries to control by limiting press access) and even things such as his involvement in the Savings & Loan scandal way back in the 80's, as well as issues with his temper... then it's going to have to be brought up by Obama's campaign. I suppose they will bring it up, eventually... but I'm not sure what they're waiting for. Perhaps they're waiting until after the convention? Or maybe they just want to play it nice, which is a risky strategy even in the relatively favorable situation they're currently in. I don't know.

And yeah, it's hard for a politician to make political commitments since it opens them up to criticism, although not doing so means people don't have a reason to vote for you. It's a walk that Obama seems notably more adept at than the foolish centrists in his party have been.

Although he annoys me at times (not often, thankfully), I understand the nature of politics and sympathize with their situation, and I'm not so sure that any of the truly effective presidents were very honest while they were first campaigning for office.

[Mongolian]

truly effective presidents were very honest while they were first campaigning for office.

Which is why it doesn't bother me and completely makes others hate Obama for not choosing a side. I think we have stepped into a time and place where the goal of politics is just about saying the right things vs. giving your stance on something. Mister president, did you have sexual relations with that woman? Mister president, is 9-11 connected to Iraq? ... It's just disgusting how much lies are manifested in our daily lives.

[Necromis]

First, I want to point out that I am in the lower middle class, and am not in the wealthy upper class. Secondly, does no one speaking in this thread remember two things. 1) Bush's tax cuts actually increased the revenue brought in by the IRS. 2) Obama, even knowing this fact said he didn't care if what he wanted to do would lose revenue he wanted the upper class to pay more taxes. The reality is 90% of the taxes are already being paid by the rich. McCain is not planning on giving hand outs to the rich or businesses. Two different things between tax cuts and hand outs. Hand outs are when you give money to someone that never earned that money.

Obama came out after the war started saying his thoughts on it. Not before it. So it is easy to make statments like that. The surge is working, if it wasn't Obama would not have been safe walking where he did this small trip that he spent a couple of hours in Iraq. McCain spent several days in Iraq, and DID speak to the troops. Not just photo ops.

I am sorry to say that Obama is not shrewed, he just speaks well when he has a teleprompter.

[Mongolian]

Obama's "Hand outs" was probablly said out of context or just to appease voters. Yes, it doesn't make sence. Point is that the system is fine now and nothing needs to change for taxes. But what McCain wants is a change. A change [flat tax] that will hurt those that can NOT PAY and help the rich. And yes, you wouldn't realise that being poor means there is no way to invest. = Harf for poor to become middle or rich. But when you have money, on the other hand, easy to invest, put money in things that are non-taxable and other ways to make money if you are smart.

[Evnissyen]

Argh! Mongolian has misquoted me by removing the lead-in clause! I feel like Wesley Clark. I was saying the opposite of what the quote suggested I was saying. But... generally I agree with Mongolian's response.

Necromis:
Remarks of Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama Against Going to War with Iraq : October 02, 2002 (Check the date. We went to war in March, 2003.)

In Iraq, Mixed Feelings About Obama and His Troop Proposal : A balanced article. Read the whole thing. Aside from what the title suggests, the article describes Obama's widespread appeal among Iraqi's. Note also that your "surge" is not exactly complete.


Also, if you've been paying attention to the news you'd notice 1. Obama's been very well received not just by the Iraqi leaders but also by the American troops in Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Iraq. All in all: He's been looking very presidential and diplomatic. This, after all, is what a good president does (as opposed to Bush's isolationist, deaf-eared cowboy attitude). Meanwhile, McCain's been at home whining that the press is paying attention to his opponent and that soldiers and foreign leaders are receiving him warmly.

Do a web search on his tour and you'll find out some more information. I'll leave Afghanistan, Kuwait and Israel to you. I suggest sticking to the actual news articles, not the blogs, liberal or conservative.

Oh yeah... and McCain has screwed up again by mentioning Czechoslovakia yet again and suggesting that Pakistan and Iraq share a border, and he also apparently thinks that Vladamir Putin is president of Germany. Ooh! And apparently the names of football players he attempted to confuse his captors with, back in that POW camp which qualifies him to be President, have now suddenly switched teams.

One wonders if McCain's mental faculties are quite up to the task of being President of the USA.

In regard to "handouts": you were the one arguing against redistribution of wealth. Well... Bush has been redistributing my taxes to wealthy corporations. Trillions of dollars in "handouts", along with a dramatic reduction in the upper class's taxes. Mongolian has explained the rest. I myself have already explained the reasoning behind the graduated tax system. And McCain wants to maintain a taxation system which will not stabilize the economy. And he calls himself fiscally responsible? Revenue has to come from someplace, and it's not coming from people without money. Simple economics. The budget needs to be balanced in order to stop the deflation of the dollar, which is making China (who has a significant investment in us) very, very nervous.

And to say that Obama is not shrewd is to admit that you haven't been paying attention, or reading the correct news sources.