Mongolian wrote:I think your missing the point Basilisk. I gave up playing the mage officially cause it wasn't fun. I don't want to splash and become part rogue or warrior cause it feels cheesy. I have all the stats I need. Sure, I can go back to town and rest after every fight, but what fun is that?
"Fun" is relative, Mongolian. Some people like the challenge of playing a difficult class like a pure Mage. What you are saying is that you would find it more fun if you had to worry less about micromanaging your skills and stats and just blast things with fireballs all day. I can appreciate that, but our intention was never for a mage to mimic (with fireballs) what a Fighter can do with his sword. Mages must be played differently than Fighters in order to succeed, and that style of play may not be fun for everyone. If that is the case for you, just play a fighter with a few magick skills and get the best of both worlds!
As I said, we will make Mages a bit more "accessible" in Book II, but it will always remain a challenging class to play within the Eschalon series.
Maybe the problem stems in the fact the main characters MAGE-FIGHTER-PRIEST-THIEF are not truly meant to be played as that but a combination of characters. I've already beaten the game couple times, but before I did, It was largely annoying trying characters to realise they didn't work well coming from someone who doesn't know too much about D&D or classes.
Would it be possable to have a better character description when you select a class? especially the magic user. It's a decent description but it doesn't dwell enough on what to expect. Also, if you start off as a magic user, it should be pointed out somewhere that "camping" is a crucial element of this character. It maybe obvious to some but really would have been nice.
Re: Wrangler. It wasn't any more difficult to play mage one bit, it was just more annoying cause I was constantly relying on camping/sleeping in town. It just felt like cheating how much I used this but it was also unavoidable. And good to hear II will adjust this a bit.
I agree with BW that there is no need for different play styles/character types to be equal in play difficulty.
I like to see more challenging routes to take and more difficult things to try.
I do think there could be a more satisfying payoff to taking some of those routes though. Yes, some combat-oriented advantage would be nice, but there are other possibilities as well: areas that can't be accessed except by certain kinds of characters, items only usable by characters with certain skills advanced far enough, quests and plot twists accessible only by some types, etc.
Another example, I might make the melee heavy hitters more food dependent for example (if food is implemented), and give other types of characters advantages that allow them to last longer in the wilderness without having to come back for supplies.
Last edited by Farwalker on August 14th, 2008, 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BasiliskWrangler wrote:
"Fun" is relative, Mongolian. Some people like the challenge of playing a difficult class like a pure Mage. What you are saying is that you would find it more fun if you had to worry less about micromanaging your skills and stats and just blast things with fireballs all day. I can appreciate that, but our intention was never for a mage to mimic (with fireballs) what a Fighter can do with his sword. Mages must be played differently than Fighters in order to succeed, and that style of play may not be fun for everyone. If that is the case for you, just play a fighter with a few magick skills and get the best of both worlds!
I find it hard to believe that a "style of play" that involves substantial amounts of play time sitting and staring at a little tent on the screen can be defined as "fun" by anyone. I had fun playing my mage, but none of it involved the mana-use/resting mechanic. Having to rest after every single fight is not fun, it's irritating. Difficult is one thing; uselessly annoying is something else entirely.
I usually only play fighters or paladins, i found the game easier as a mage (although i'm only at level 7), i'm sure i'll have trouble later with the cows.
I do agree that something must be done about how the skill Elemental magic works though, it should enhance dmg or lower spell cost so that its more useful for a pure mage. i don't know if i'm wrong but once i get the skill high enough to get supernova whats the point in getting it any higher?
I camp a lot too, but being a conjurer i do that most outside and pop potions like crazy when inside caves and such.
I recently played as a Pure Mage and found it relatively easy. Sure it got harder later on, but it never got impossible or became boring. I learned quickly to be mana efficient, I did this in many ways:
1: Choose Druidic. Sure, you suffer in dungeons, but the mana regen with it and Meditation means you get 1 mana a turn (outdoors) almost from the start of the game. (certain all it took was 10 Meditation, I can test if anyone wants)
2: Lower cost spells on single, or weaker opponents. Might be fun to fireball that single Salamander, but for 6 mana you can ussually 1-hit them with a lvl 3 fire bolt.
3: Kite, Kite, and kite some more. Might seem silly to run from them like a little girl, but I can assure you that that group of 3 Taurex clump just right and all 3 get Compress Atmosphere'd into red stains on the sands of Crakamir.
4: Alchemy. I used a lot of potions, and the cost wasn't nearly as bad as one would think. Fortified Mana, Haste, and insane mana regeneration ussually ment I was only ever wanting in mana when deep in a dungeon.
These are only a few of the tricks I used, and needless to say during the rather entertaining battle outside the Goblin Citadel I didn't run, and killed most the enemies there. (giants did steel a few kills, sadly.)
Akark, you seem well well above the average person playing this game. So, are you suggesting that the average person should have fun camping a lot then? Or is this possably a case of bad design.
I love the idea of making fighters heavy having to eat more, but both having to eat a lot and camp a lot are game dynamics that I hope don't add up to severe waiting times or annoyance to using.
And yes, for those that don't know Book 2 has supposively made mages better as its been said b4 ;p
During my play through I didn't camp very often. Usually, if I ran out of pots I'd just fast travel to one of the towns and buy more ingredients for potions.
I will agree that there did seem to be a slight issue with magic, but the problems people have been mentioning don't seem as bad as they have made it out to be. I only truely struggled twice in the game. First time was against the raptors, second against the rather large number of Taurex I was facing in Crakamir.
I'm not a game designer by any means, so I can't really speak about perceived balance issues or ways to fix them. But I can say that each person is different, and will have fun playing the game in different ways. I found playing as a pure mage extremely entertaining, and my only wish was for slightly decreased casting costs or slightly increased damage of spells. (Or another possibility, more man gained a lvl, or skills that can alleviate this.) Again, I still found it fun, and easily within the realm of possibility to beat the game as a pure mage.
Be a little fair, here. You have spent the majority of this thread stating or implying that the design is faulty (not because it is unbeatable in a certain role-play class, but rather "boring") and when Akark describes how he managed a pure mage, you indicated that perhaps it was his high playing skill that helped avoid said boredom.
Now, if a game is challenging, and moreover, provides a variety of challenges through varied types of role-playing, I do not understand how it can be "boring". Boring to someone who doesn't want the challenge of trying to figure out a better way to make a pure mage work, yes. If you don't want to play a pure mage, no problem, but if it isn't to your taste and someone describes a way to make it work, I think there is wisdom in accepting that perhaps gameplay needn't confine you to the boring routine you describe.
This statement
[ you seem well well above the average person playing this game. So, are you suggesting that the average person should have fun camping a lot then? Or is this possably a case of bad design.]
seems congruent to "this game is poorly designed because it is boring when I play it this way, and although someone described the opposite experience to me, it is poor design because I shouldn't have to have figured that out."
Not trying to be snarky or rude, but apparently someone enjoys playing a pure mage and had success (and fun!) with it. It might not be such a bad design after all . . . .
No doubt. I have kudos for anarki doing well with the mage and I'm sure there are plenty others. Straight mages are still hard to come by. When I was playing mage all I did after every fight was just quick path to the first town and rest over night. Wash, rince and repeat. Perhaps boring is the incorrect word for this process but all I knew that after several times doing this effect felt like cheating. Other then that, it kinda took out the fun factor. Eschalon is such a great game, it just to me feels like the entire game was designed to be played in real time (despite being turn base). As in, it is meant to be enjoyed at a nice pace and not something designed to keep camping/resting/sleeping in town every battle.
But this conversation is pretty mute anyhow as book2 has already tweeked this, so not much to comment on here except concept.
When I said that I rarely camped I meant it. I suppose I should be more detailed...
After lvl 2 or 3 my mana regeneration was such that when outdoors, after most fights, I had regened most my mana before I made it to the next fight. When in dungeons I was forced to rely on pots, but since I never needed them outdoors I was able to stock-pile them. Once I had hit lvl 10 my regeneration got to this point in dungeons as well. Later in the game, against the raptors, and again against Taurex, I was forced to use quite a few Fortified Mana pots. Again, not a big deal because of the amount of cash I had sitting around to buy pots and ingredients...
If this isn't detailed enough, I can break down everything I did on a point by point bases?
I honestly don't think the game needed the major changes people have made it out to need in this thread.
Akark wrote:When I said that I rarely camped I meant it. I suppose I should be more detailed...
After lvl 2 or 3 my mana regeneration was such that when outdoors, after most fights, I had regened most my mana before I made it to the next fight. When in dungeons I was forced to rely on pots, but since I never needed them outdoors I was able to stock-pile them. Once I had hit lvl 10 my regeneration got to this point in dungeons as well. Later in the game, against the raptors, and again against Taurex, I was forced to use quite a few Fortified Mana pots. Again, not a big deal because of the amount of cash I had sitting around to buy pots and ingredients...
If this isn't detailed enough, I can break down everything I did on a point by point bases?
I honestly don't think the game needed the major changes people have made it out to need in this thread.
~Akark
It might be a good idea to give a general idea of your stats and what you went focused on early in the game. I've found when playing a strict class type character if you don't focus properly in your stats at the beginning then it tends to make the game more difficult.
But that might just be me. Anyways I'm curious and I think I might try a pure mage character myself just to get a different feel in the game. (Mine was originally stealth-based, but soon went for magic only for the buffs. Air Shield was especially useful.)
I, personally, don't have any issue with certain classes being more challenging than others, and I don't think that's the issue that people complain about when they complain about the issues with Magick Users. It's certainly not the issue that I complain about. It's all well and fine to have the Magick User be the most challenging class in the game... but when you have to camp out so often, as has been pointed out, just to restore mana... sometimes for as much as an entire day, or longer... during which you are constantly being interrupted and thus forced to deplete your mana even more (for defensive purposes)... this gets rather annoying. And game development sure as hell shouldn't be aimed toward annoying players. The main issue I find with spellcasting is not with spell points, it's with mana regeneration. Mana regeneration should be passive and it should be quick, and it should be quicker the more experienced you are, and Mongolian's suggestion that there be armor that improves mana regeneration, as there is in some other games, is a good one as well.
Of course, I didn't bother spending any points in Meditation. I never considered it would help all that much... I suppose I should've, since the player's manual says as much... but I ended up being much more concerned with raising my Divine and Elemental spellcasting levels, which consumed an awful lot of skill points.
This issue with mana, of course, is not restricted to Magick Users. I played a fighter, myself, but it wasn't long before I began concentrating all my leveling points on magic. Magic seems important in Eschalon. Perhaps I could've played a pure fighter and ignored magic and relied on potions instead. But I like magic.
Mongolian:
As for whether or not Eschalon seems as if it were or should have been intended to be a real-time game instead of turn-based... I haven't thought about that.... In this respect, BW could do with Book 2 what Jeff Vogel did with Geneforge, and combine the two. The Geneforge games are real-time until you enter combat mode, at which point the games become turn-based. That might be an interesting change for the second installment.
I'll tell you all another thing.... When Book 2 finally comes out: I don't want to start playing the game only to quickly find out that I'm playing the same game as Book 1 except with a few tweaks here and there... I'm hoping for a significantly different experience. (Otherwise I might as well just replay Book 1, right?)
Certainty: a character-driven, literary, turn-based mini-CRPG in which Vasek, legendary "Wandering Philosopher", seeks certainties in a cryptically insular, organic, critically layered city.
Here's one thing I noticed: if you're going to attack a couple of mobs, then you can use a bought/home-made Potion of Fortified Mana which will cut all mana costs in half for 10 rounds. This is especially userful if you have a huge (200+) mana points reserve. In other cases it might be better to drink some mana potions. I'm currently playing as a pure mage, using no weapons or armor at all (except for the stat bonusses of course, but they incur a penalty because I'm not proficient with them) and I'm looking for ways to avoid camp abuse. Currently it's going pretty well.
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