Fallout 3

[CrazyBernie]

Well it could hardly be considered complete. I'm sure they hadn't had the chance to "dirty it up" before it got canned.

Besides, things always look cleaner from a distance.... take my car, for example....

[BasiliskWrangler]

Besides, things always look cleaner from a distance.... take my car, for example....

[Rune_74]

Hmmm you know what? fallout 3 looks better then that pic. Seriously, why is a game with first person not considered an rpg? Thsi drives me crazy, do we limit rpg's to a top down mode by default? A rpg is a game where you assume the role of a character and in fallout 3 you do this.

Some of you will be shocked at how well fallout 3 captures the feel of fallout. Honestly I'm very impressed. And no, I don't have to pretend it's not realted to the first two, becaused it honestly does them justice. Its just a different way of presenting the game, tell me you couldn't see this same game being easily done in 3rd pesron top down with the same story. Its no different then the others other then combat is sped up a bit(well obviously here).

And for the record its not oblivion with guns. Its fallout.

[Getharn]

Seriously, why is a game with first person not considered an rpg? Thsi drives me crazy, do we limit rpg's to a top down mode by default? A rpg is a game where you assume the role of a character and in fallout 3 you do this.

The fact that it's first-person perspective isn't really important - Bard's Tale and the original Gold Box games were (at least partially) first-person, and they were most definitely RPGs. It's more the real-time combat element.

It's inaccurate to say that any game in which you play a role is a role-playing game - otherwise, every FPS and platformer ever made is an RPG. Is Half Life an RPG? Tomb Raider? Mario? Pacman? In all those games you take on the role of someone else. Utility trumps accuracy, and it's not useful to describe these game as RPGs, whether or not it's accurate. The term "pop music" comes from abbreviating "popular music", but when people talk about "pop music" they don't generally mean "any music which is currently popular". Typically they mean a particular genre of music. The origin of the name is less important than what people mean by it, and my point earlier was that if a term could mean almost anything, it's not a very useful term.

Now, I haven't played Fallout 3 yet, so let me fall back on Oblivion. What skills did I need to succeed at Oblivion? Well, there were some of the resource management issues on which most RPGs are fundamentally based (where "resources" could be experience points, hit points, mana points, inventory items, etc.). However, I found the lateral thinking aspects a bit lacking - there wasn't a lot of problem-solving, or meaningful character interaction (one could talk to people, but I never felt that the conversations were materially affecting the direction of the plot). I also needed pretty sharp reactions and good hand-eye coordination, just like I do with any FPS. So, I think Oblivion is a border-line RPG - as someone mentioned earlier "action RPG" is as good a name as any I suppose. But I think it's important to put the "action" in front of it, to help people realise the type of game.

To me, just an "RPG" is either turn-based, or uses a semi-real-time system like Neverwinter Nights - the key point is I can sit back and think about my next course of action at any time, I don't have to run around on an adrenaline-fueled dash if something goes wrong. Also, my character has the skills I don't, so I don't need to direct his/her every sword swing or lock picking attempt. I'm not saying either of those is better or worse, I'm just saying they're different.

You seem to believe that "not an RPG" is a derogatory term - it's not at all, it's just trying to get an accurate idea of the type of game. Half Life 2 still remains one of my favourite games of all time - I've replayed it about four times. I wouldn't say it's an RPG, however. Thief was also one of my all-time faves, and that was even in a fantasy setting - it still wasn't an RPG, though.

Anyway, even if you couldn't disagree more with any of that, try not to let it drive you crazy - that's no way to live a happy life! I refer you to xkcd.

EDIT: What the hell genre would you put Thief in? "First-person sneaker"?

[Saxon1974]

Hm, maybe I should give Fallout 3 a try. I managed to miss the other two installments, so I guess I won't have the same sense of outrage that fans of the franchise might experience...

It's interesting that people are pulling some inventory management and plotline choices into the first person genre these days, but to my mind it certainly doesn't make them RPGs. In my opinion, this fusion should be regarded as a new (albeit evolutionary, rather than revolutionary) genre. When you boil things down to fundamental gameplay elements, the whole spectrum of games out there can be thought of as a linear combination of a few different elements - fantasy vs. futuristic setting, degree of inventory management, degree of character development and degree of linearity (in both the world and the plotline).

Games like Half Life exemplify the linear FPS genre, despite sometimes being innovative in their own way - no character development, no serious inventory management, just blast your way through. That's not a complaint, I think all the Half Life games are amazing, but I like the way that they don't try to be something they're not. Stick in some inventory management and you've got Crysis. Make it also non-linear and you've got STALKER. Stick in some character development on top of that and you've got Syetem Shock or Bioshock. Take out some of the non-linearity again and you've got Deus Ex. Crank up the fantasy setting and you've got Dark Messiah. Stick everything else back in again and you've got Oblivion or Morrowind.

Despite these differences, in some ways all of the games share a common thread - single character, first person perspective and direct, real-time control over your character's actions. These are the things which don't, to my mind, make it a "true" RPG. That's not a value judgement in any way - it's just a categorisation. The only thing I lament is that this categorisation seems to be slowly getting diluted to the extent that you can call pretty much anything an RPG these days, and that doesn't make it a very useful categorisation.

In the 70's, beer in the UK was in a sorry state - it was all mass-produced rubbish, and tasted awful as a result. A set of people set up CAMRA in response - the campaign for real ale. This created a designation of "real ale" which put restrictions on how the beer could be made and still be called "real ale", and this was very useful as the public could suddenly tell the difference between decent homebrew and mass-produced crud. As a result, there's now a popular real ale movement in the UK, and the industry is thriving.

So, maybe we should start the campaign for real RPGs?

Anyway. I'll stop blathering now. Apologies if that was rather off-topic and/or tedious.

As an aside, does anybody know offhand if my X1950 will cope with Fallout 3? It played Bioshock reasonably, but the recommended specs for F3 call for a 512MB graphics card, whereas I think mine's only 256.

EDIT: I tell a lie, according to my eBuyer purchase history (I love online shopping!) it's got 512MB. According to Toms Hardware, however, it's not a patch on the 3800 series that's part of the "recommended specs" for F3. Still, I guessing they've provided lots of detail cranking down ability?

And I would also like to add I dont think that combat has to be turn based to feel like an RPG even though I prefer turn based I think real time can work as long as it requires the use of strategy to win and not twitchy reflexes.

I think another part of what makes a game feel like an RPG to me is it needs to be somewhat difficult at the start and it needs to require you to build up your skills and stats to be able to get anywhere. I hear from some people posting that F3 is very easy in the beginning. Basically it sounds like the game is focused on graphics and "Action" combat more than the use of skills and stats and tactical combat.

So based on that its not really first person that makes it not an RPG to me. A good example of a first person RPG is Wizardy 8, which was great by the way.

Cheers

[Rune_74]

Although wizardry 8 was a good game....it really sucked at npc interaction so you could say it was a great combat rpg. Fallout has a much better immersion factor in this.

[Saxon1974]

I dont remember the NPC interaction all that well on it so can't really comment on it without going back and playing it.

But that being said, I thought Dialog and NPC interaction was awful in Oblivion, not sure if F3 is similar with having played it though. The faces looked awful and were too zoomed in and I thought the dialog was a bit weak. I really prefered Morrowind Dialog since it was more details and seemed to have more background info.

What do you think of the writing in F3 so far? Does it appear writing for a 12 year old like Im hearing on some other sites?

[Rune_74]

Well its definately not for twelve year olds and it is better then oblivion. I had a long talk with a lady in one of the first cities and she seemed quite knowledgable on backgrounds.

If you are refering to Vault dwellers impressions, well...I was involved in some of those conversations as well, and what he is doing is taking things out of context and placing it as if the game presented it that way. He definately has an agenda with the game(big surprise here). So take it with a grain of salt.


In the end all that matters is the game fun? To me its great fun, I like it better then oblivion and I did enjoy that game for what it was.

[Saxon1974]

Yes I saw Vault Dweller's posts, agree he has an axe to grind against bethesda and while I agree with some of his points he goes too far mostly. It was other RPGcodex post that I was referring to though.

You might convince me to play this yet, just need to finish playing Ultima III first.

Seems like it would be hard to make a bad post-apoc RPG as long as its not a buggy mess just because the setting is fresh and interesting.

[Rune_74]

He definately has an agenda with the game...

Yes I saw Vault Dweller's posts, agree he has an axe to grind against bethesda...

Obviously, anyone that finds fault with Fallout 3 clearly has an agenda. Regardless, Vault Dweller thinks Fallout 3 based on his current impressions so far is overrall a pretty good game. Still, easier to assume he has an agenda, amirite Rune_74?

You don't think he does? Did you not see his unbiased play through? Play the game and see if its like he said it was...because I have in the same places he uses to make fun it wasn't that way when I played through, why is that? Because it is very easy to take things out of context. And personally I don't care if you don't like that I find he has agenda.

Edit: granted I did not see that post last time I looked. Read the first few pages alone without that and its alot worse. Still even with the last one he does not even think its close to fallout. But honestly would it be unless it looked exactly the same and played exactly the same?

BTW did you notice both those qoutes weren't mine? Would kind of make you think its not just me then hmmm?

[Rune_74]

Play the game and see if its like he said it was...

Sure, I'll try the demo. Oh, wait...

Maybe I should pirate it? No. I wouldn't feel right about it. My brother has foolishly bought Oblivion with Guns and it should arrive Monday. I've read most of the interviews, previews, gameplay videos and even watched several hours of the leaked X-Box version on some streaming website. Believe me when I say I look forward to seeing first hand how Bethesda have bastardised, consolized and butchered the Fallout franchise.

And personally I don't care if you don't like that I find he has agenda.

And I should care, because?

But honestly would it be unless it looked exactly the same and played exactly the same?

Excellent strawman. Make him out to be impossible to please. Well done.

BTW did you notice both those qoutes weren't mine?

Obviously, one from you and the other from Saxon1974. I figured the vast majority of people would of been able to conjure up the intelligence to notice that.

I'm glad you are taking an open mind to it as vault dweller did, I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Also, when you take things out of context your arguements work better, hence your last qoute didn't make sense unless you took what I typed after it, but I guess that would not be as effective.

Have a great day:)

[Getharn]

Hey, my download speed just dropped to a terribly depressing 150KB/s - Steam's servers must be getting busy, I can't imagine why. It was a slightly more respectable 600KB/s a little while ago, which is about the best my poor little DSL connection will ever manage.

Anyway, since it'll be some time longer before I'm able to play the game to make up my own mind, could you guys spend a little while longer tearing strips off each other, please? It's making a very entertaining distraction while I wait for the game to download. If it goes too quiet in here, I'll have to start posting inflammatory nonsense in that Obama vs. McCain thread to get the debate up to a rolling boil there instead.

Hm, does this post make me a meta-troll?

[Saxon1974]

Good grief Jedi_Learner, I was just saying that I feel that VD has a dislike that feels like an agenda towards bethesda. I have read alot of his posts and I usually like them, but he is always very negative relating to Bethesda (Mostly justified).

Why is it so wrong for someone to say that they feel that way? Are you VD's PR person?

[Rune_74]

Be thankfull you're not getting his nasty messages...he won't stop sending me crap now, hope to god he doesn't find out where I live:P

[Saxon1974]

The Maturity level on free message boards isn't quite at a 6th grade level yet. The Anonymity of free boards seems to grant people the courage to argue more than they would in a face to face, and act less civilized. That's why I come here sometimes because the people on here seem to be a bit older and more mature than you find on the codex.

Oh well, probably best to ignore nasty messages.

Anyways back to topic.

I have heard some people saying level scaling is in this game. Is it like it was in Oblivion?