My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

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robert_aronson
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My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by robert_aronson »

Hi all. I just finished Eschalon Book I after about 30 hours and I must say: very nice.

Even though I've been a gamer since about 1995 and have been playing games for about ten years before that, I've never finished a CRPG before this day. Something about Eschalon was just so inviting, so comfortable. It wasn't overwhelming in size and/or complexity like many other CRPGs; it was seemingly the perfect fit for me. Not too hot, not too cold, just a nice, warm place in the middle of a pleasant town called "moderate." :)

The simplicity of the game combined with the bright, colorful graphics and more than decent music compelled me to actually get through it. I must admit the storyline was rather lacking (being almost nonexistent), but how can I rest on complaints? I devoted 30 hours to this game and enjoyed almost every minute of it (with the gun-to-head monotonous exception of trying to map Baron's Thicket).

There's only a few things I would suggest to make the game much (much) more fun. I know it's rather late in Book II's production to perhaps take these into consideration, but... maybe Book III? ;)

1.) Other people have probably mentioned this, but having to have a skill to have a minimap seems anti-productive. I realize it adds a bit to the realism of the world, but how much does it really offer gameplay? Is it really worth it to spend very, very valuable skill points on Cartography?

2.) Having the minimap function on the basis of line-of-sight, even though the actual game window doesn't do this, is supremely annoying. Baron's Thicket is the chief example among every forest example in Thaermore. Mapping that place was TEDIOUS, and it went on FOREVER. I could see that there was nothing to find in the game window, but the minimap wouldn't fill in until I stepped in every nook and cranny and looked at every tree from every angle. Call me obsessive compulsive, but I was trying to get the minimap filled completely in and I wasn't leaving until it was done.

My suggestion is to keep the line-of-sight minimap, but make it so trees don't get in the way of line-of-sight as far as the minimap is concerned. Walls, sure, but not trees and not objects. I can't tell you how much more fun Eschalon would have been had this been the case. Even though I very much enjoyed the game, exploring it quickly became my least favorite part due to the minimap and trees.

If you can see it in the game window, it ought to show up on the minimap. There's little excuse to have to walk up to a wall you can plainly see just so it will show up on the minimap.

3.) You need to get more Skill Points per level-up. Need. I'd say 9, and limit the amount each skill can be raised per level to +3. I wish I could have experimented with skills a lot more, but they were so expensive and leveling so time-capturing that it seemed like a quest in un-fun to even try... so I didn't. I focused on two skills, and that's it, because that's all I could really do.

Having to have a minimum of 5 in Cartography for it to be useful and a minimum of 10 in Merchantile to start getting decent prices seriously, seriously hurts the survivability of characters in the early and mid-games due to the expensive nature of skills. Because I just had to have those skills at those levels, much of my time in the game was spent camping to heal massive HP loss because my weapon and armor skills were much lower than they should have been for my level.

4.) A minor gripe, but I've never liked puzzles in any game other than an adventure game. I play games other than adventures to shut my mind off, not have to start grinding the gears again. But I realize this is a just a personal opinion, so...

----

But, all that said and done, I still found Eschalon to be a very fun game and perhaps a great reintroduction to the world of CRPGs for me, a genre of gaming I've always ignored because I was never mature enough to sit down and be patient and explore a gritty world of all-too-often death in the face of incredible odds. (And because my RPG fan-hood was weaned on games like Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger.)

Bravo, Basilisk, bravo. :)
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Turtle
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by Turtle »

robert_aronson wrote:Having to have a minimum of 5 in Cartography for it to be useful and a minimum of 10 in Merchantile
Whoa, really? No wonder you were frustrated. Next time, try skipping Mercantile altogether, except for the book (there's also an amulet). True, your prices will suck, but in the end you almost always have more money than you can spend, regardless. And you don't have to spend any skill points to get Cartography to 5; you can buy it to level 5 after doing the sextant quest, and there's a book that will bring you up to 7 from there.
robert_aronson
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by robert_aronson »

But a person can't know that during character creation and when he's playing the game for the first time. I don't know about most people, but I don't usually play a game a second time through for at least two or three years after the first run-through.
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by Turtle »

Of course, nobody knows how to best spend skill points on the first try. That's part of the fun and frustration. I started over twice before I finished the game, but obviously not everyone would want to do that!
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by robert_aronson »

Yeah, my character was a third attempt as well. In my first two attempts I got as far as Aridell after exploring most of North Parish. I was so happy I finally got a character I was happy with. ;)
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by xolotl »

robert_aronson wrote:2.) Having the minimap function on the basis of line-of-sight, even though the actual game window doesn't do this, is supremely annoying.
Yeah, I found that a little frustrating too... Something which I felt was more detrimental, though, was the level of Cartography required before your character starts noting where water is. I dig that it makes sense that as you learn more about making maps, your maps get better and better, but if you know enough to put a wall down on your map, you'd certainly think to say "there's a big-ass body of water right here." Not a big deal, obviously, but it definitely bugged me.

On a somewhat related note, I'd think it would make sense to have a cap on the maximum level you can bring a skill. For instance, bringing Alchemy above 15 doesn't actually provide any benefits... There's a point at which Meditation becomes useless to enhance, etc (or so it seems, anyway). I'm sure the same could be said for many skills. IMO, Cartography should really have a max of maybe five or so... It would be nice for the GUI to prevent you from adding points to skills where they won't help out your character at all.

Now, going off on an even further tangent, I've always found it a bit odd that Doing Things in the game world doesn't affect your skill stats. Like, let's say that I've just levelled up and I've gotten most of my recent XP from killing creatures with Cleaving Weapons... Wouldn't it make sense to have my Cleaving Weapon skill go up at that time? Or if I've been doing a lot of lockpicking, or casting spells. It seems rather counterintuitive that I should spend a big chunk of time in the game carrying out actions which are directly related to skills, and then instead of getting better in those skills, I suddenly acquire Thrown Weapons instead. (Not that I think you shouldn't be able to allocate arbitrary skill points when levelling up, mind you... That's a great driver for enhancing your character and keeping the game fun. I just think that some skills should automatically get better the more and more you're using them.)
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by Getharn »

xolotl wrote:Like, let's say that I've just levelled up and I've gotten most of my recent XP from killing creatures with Cleaving Weapons... Wouldn't it make sense to have my Cleaving Weapon skill go up at that time?
I don't think there's really a right or a wrong answer here - one of the biggest differences between different rulesets is whether your in-game activities decide which skills get advanced (such as in Morrowind or Oblivion) or whether you have free choice (such as Eschalon or D&D). The main disadvantage to purely "practice" systems is that you're forced to use skills while they have low value, which can be difficult - some skills just aren't very useful until you're well-versed in them.

I suppose it would be possible to have some sort of hybrid approach where, for example, you pick the top three skills that have been used since the last level and either assign bonus points or a point "multiplier" to them. I think this would be a real pain to balance, however. Who's to say how many blows with a sword is an equivalent amount of practice to picking a single lock? I suppose the only sensible way would be to leverage the existing balance mechanism - experience points. So, you keep track of the XP earned by killing monsters (you pick the most-used weapon type for each kill), picking locks, disarming traps, etc. That would probably end up always favouring combat skills and spells, but it's about as close as you could get, I reckon.

However, I don't think systems need this - I like the ability to dictate how all my skills are spent. If I'm going to get extra skill points every level, I'd want to be able to spend them as normal, rather than have them assigned for me.

One interesting thing you could do, though, would be to select a single "focus skill" every level. This is a declaration that the character will be primarily practicing that skill, and has no effect until the next level up - at this point it adds 50% to any points you assign to that skill. The fact that you have to choose it in advance could add an interesting dynamic to character development. I'm not sure if this idea's been used before or not, and I'm not even sure it's a good one, but I like the idea of benefiting players who plan ahead.
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by xolotl »

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't want to advocate getting rid of the arbitrary-point system in Eschalon. I was thinking something more along the lines of, you get your three points to spend however you want, during levelling-up, but you'd also get maybe an extra point automatically put into a skill that you used often during the last period-between-levels. (And, again, this really isn't a big deal. I certainly had plenty of fun playing with the purely-arbitrary-allocation during Book 1, and I'm sure I'll continue to enjoy the series even without having skill usage contribute to skill advancement.)
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by IJBall »

For the record, I think putting a "maximum cap" on some Skills would also be helpful.

Now, apparently, Cartography still grants you benefits up through Level 17 or 19 or something, and Mercantile keeps paying off (pun intended) up and through Level 30, and I guess there's no limit to upping either Meditation or Survival (at least until your resistance scores get to 100%) or the weapons or armor Skills.

But it would really be good if some of the Skills did have maximums - say Lore maxed out at Level 7 or Level 10. Same with Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Pick Locks, etc. I think it'd be good if some Skills did have a maximum, and the game would prevent you from adding to those Skills once the maximum was reached.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 on the subject.
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Re: My FInal Thoughts Upon Finishing Eschalon B1 (No Spoilers)

Post by CrazyBernie »

I do like how it's done in Morrowind/Oblivion; where your experience points contribute to the skills you use to gain those points, as well as toward your level progression. I.E. if you kill an enemy with a sword, the experience points you gain are applied to swordsmanship as well as leveling you up. It's not the realism aspect as much as the fluidity it creates. Once again I'm not a huge advocate of "realism" in a "fantasy" world... :mrgreen:

A combo system could certainly work out... say your skills can level up a small amount on their own, but still need points pumped into them if you really want to master that skill (you can only swing a sword the same way so much before you stop learning from it and need learn a new style). It could be a way to give people who generalize a way to spread more points around without being as penalized as you normally would doing so.

Of course I'm just reiterating a lot of what Getharn has already mentioned, there's a big balance issue at hand. The biggest obstacle would be deciding how much XP is needed to level up the Sword skill vs. the Lockpick skill.
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