Home again...or not?

[Rush]

When I began playing Eschalon Book I, I thought to myself...I guess you really "can" go home again. I mean, for an old school gamer such as myself, this game seemed to hit upon exactly what I was looking for in an CRPG. I loved it, and still do, and couldn't/can't hardly wait for Book II to come out next year.

The one and only downside to playing Book II, as I see it...will be the addition of "hunger" and "thirst" meters/bars which come with this long awaited sequel. See...I thought, as gamers and game creators one and all...that we were beyond such long ago abandoned (and smartly so) add-on ideas which, while looking good upon paper, only hinder game play in the way of needless <--obsessive--> frustration.

I guess I could site example upon example here to make my point, but I'll just use the first CRPG which came to mind, being the Magic Candle series of bygone days. Great looking games, they were, save for the fact that every aspect of the games rested upon a candle, as in, when the candle died out, the game was over. Want to explore a town? Nope, not enough candle time. Want to venture forth into a dungeon? Nope, sorry my friend.

Truthfully, you "could" actually get by in the Magic Candle series--(along with other such frustrating CRPGs)--but throughout such games, the main worry/focus was upon candles, or food, or water or what-have-you...and that particular worry/focus dominated what should have been good/exciting game play.

While emersing myself into and within a solid CRPG, I want to be excited about what I may or may not discover around the next corner of a dungeon, and/or, what type of NPC will I encounter within the next town, and/or what might this NPC say to me? I do not want to be obsessing over a feature or features which have been tried in the past, numerous times, and have numerous times been recognized and abandoned as not such good ideas after all.

Sure, I guess I just rambled on quite a bit, and I'll admit, I am most likely overreacting, here, to a particular few added features to a terrific game's sequel, but I've lived, and I've learned, and I know, by experience, what "is" a good feature, and what features needlessly hinder the overall ambiance of good game play.

Yes, I am still planning upon purchasing the game when it comes out, and while playing it, (grins) I will suffer silently <--no need for another endless/rambling post such as this--> my only hope being that the game's players and creators alike will come to understand a little of what I am getting at.

Sorry about the typos...

---Rush.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Thanks for the comments, Rush.

I'll state this again for anyone who hasn't read this bit of news: the food and water requirements are optional. If you don't feel that feeding and watering your character adds any depth or enjoyment to the game, just un-check this option at the start of the campaign and never worry about it. Yes, it's that simple.

If you do want the extra challenge, it is there along with several other optional rules. What you get for your efforts of making the game more difficult is maybe a bit more experience points over the course of the game, and maybe a bit higher score upon finishing. "Bragging rights" type of stuff.

All this will be discussed again very soon in a sneak-peek article (with zesty new screenshots) that covers this very topic. Stay tuned!

[Rune_74]

I think if you check it optional you should just get charged a set amount every amount of time as a food expense in game. I can see nightmares in trying to balance a game where one group is buying food and stuff and another is not.


just my two cents.

[Saxon1974]

Rush, while I understand your opinion, I don't agree that having hunger and thirst as part of the game is a "needless hassle" at all.....Its a matter or opinion and one that I happen to like.

I don't think using the Candle from the Magic Candle is a good comparison here because that Candle was limiting total amount of game time making it feel like you had to Rush or you couldn't finish the game. Food and Water can be replenished at each town, so its not a game ending type of thing.

I like the feeling of being in a deep and dark dungeon and hoping I have enough food and water to make it back out again...For me it adds to the excitement.

Im playing Ultima III right now and thats one of the critical aspects of Dungeon Exploration that I like, it wouldn't be as challenging without it.

But anyway, since this is a matter of opinion I think Basilisk has made the right move and made it optional.

I do share your excitement for this series, it's exactly what I was looking forward to as well.

[Rush]

Okay, so I taste old socks. I guess that comes from talking (or in this case--->keyboard clicking) with a foot in my mouth...heh.

I should have reviewed all of the facts, first hand, before throwing in my lot on the subject of what might work, and what might not. I'm a bit embarrassed, as well as very apologetic.

It's just that for almost an entire 2 decades, now, I've been searching for, and playing GRPGs (as well as console RPGs), and I'm still riding high on what an amazing find Eschalon is in this time of mostly "so-so" games. I jumped the gun and got a little overprotective.

Guess I'll go find the nearest rock and hunker down beneath it.

Oh, heh...It snowed last night and today here. About 12 to 14 inches so far...about half of what was expected. Yesterday, most of the city turned to their nearest grocers in order to stock up for the coming snow storm. My take on it--->someone whispered the word "panic" into the wind...and we did.

---Rush.

[Rush]

Ack!--->Typos again. Sorry.

---Rush.

[mkreku]

Im playing Ultima III right now and thats one of the critical aspects of Dungeon Exploration that I like, it wouldn't be as challenging without it.

While I somewhat agree with your sentiment, I also clearly remember playing Ultima IV and getting myself equipped with 9999 (the maximum amount possible) food as soon as I had gotten rich (which didn't take particularly long). So in reality, the food challenge only lasted for the first couple of levels and then you just forgot about it, especially since food had no weight.

Oh, and if food has weight, it's usually just a hassle (for me at least) because it makes me play inventory Tetris more than anything else.

If anyone here ever played the Gothic series, that's the way I prefer my food to work in games. No need to eat it, but if you do, it provided you with a little healing (and some hidden bonuses: eating a certain amount of apples gave you +1 permanent strength!). Food has no weight either in the Gothic games so you're free to carry around an entire restaurant if you want.

[Getharn]

Even if food and drink have weight and volume, magic items such as everflowing goblets and everfull jerky pouches could allow high-level characters to skip such mundane details. I've no idea if such things are planned or not.

[Rune_74]

I woudl do it as a bar signifying how much food you have then when you are low you fill it up at stores and such...through hunting as well as foraging.

[Hawkwind]

The Might and Magic series did it well, I think. If you have food in your inventory when you rested, you ate it and regained HP and magic. If not, your characters suffered a "hunger" penalty after a few days. It would be nice to include hunter/gather into that Survival skill so that a good character knows how to eat grubs, berries and roots at some mundane level.

Let's just make sure we never stoop so low as to having to use the bathroom..."-1 on attack because you have to pee..."

[realmzmaster]

The Alternate Reality series (City and Dungeon) used food and water in an interesting way. Your character had to carry water flasks and food packets. If your character ran out of water or food , your character's attributes (stats) would start to decline. Failure to sleep and your character's fatigue level would be affected which again would affect your attributes.

Your character could make friends at the Tavern by buying rounds of drinks during your prosperous times. So if you were out of food/water and low of money your character could stumble into the Tavern and your friends would buy your character food and water! The food and water did not add to the weight, but your character could only carry so much water and food.

The Alternate Reality series also had banks where money could be deposited and gain interest. Depending on the bank you recieved more or less interest!

Your character could also get a job at an Inn to make money. Good option if you were low on funds.

All in all it added to the experience and did not require much micro management.

[AstralWanderer]

Im playing Ultima III right now and thats one of the critical aspects of Dungeon Exploration that I like, it wouldn't be as challenging without it.

I've played Ultima III and consider the food requirement to be one of the most tiresome aspects of that game (having to purchase food in maximum quantities of 99 units and then distribute it to the other 3 party members, again 99 units at a time, made it far worse). It can pose problems for low-level characters but these soon disappear with the availability of teleport magic (Sequitu in Ultima III, Portal in Eschalon).

Detailed food/drink tracking in CRPGs tends to either be a premature player-killer (Moebius being the worst example I can recall - if you were mugged by a guard who stole all your posessions, you would start dying of hunger and thirst immediately) or an insignificance that just adds to micro-management. There's not much of a middle ground.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Detailed food/drink tracking in CRPGs tends to either be a premature player-killer (Moebius being the worst example I can recall - if you were mugged by a guard who stole all your posessions, you would start dying of hunger and thirst immediately) or an insignificance that just adds to micro-management. There's not much of a middle ground.

I can elaborate a bit more on food/water in Book II. Besides the fact that you can ignore these rules if you wish, I can say that there isn't much concern over keeping your character fed or hydrated. Most towns have inns and wells, which when combined with Quick Travel, means you are never more than a few in-game minutes away from these resources. Food drops can be plentiful with some creatures (rat meat, anyone?). Generally speaking, I have never come even close to having a problem with feeding or hydrating my character.

But there are still some challenges...you can't Quick Travel out of dungeons which means you do need to plan ahead if your are going to spend a few game-days underground. Also, if you try for the Journeymaster challenge (which says you can't use Quick Travel) and you have Food and Water enforced, well that just makes things a little tricky, but it really adds to the fun of the challenge. So far I've enjoyed the new rule, but your mileage may vary.

[edit] Above, I say that "you are never more than a few in-game minutes away from these resources". That's not true, because Quick Travel does take up in-game time. However, you are rarely more than a day or two of Quick Travel to the nearest civilization and that's not enough to kill a person.

[AstralWanderer]

I can elaborate a bit more on food/water in Book II. Besides the fact that you can ignore these rules if you wish, I can say that there isn't much concern over keeping your character fed or hydrated.... I have never come even close to having a problem with feeding or hydrating my character.

Thanks for the information, but this then raises the question of why bother? If there is no real risk of starvation/dehydration then doesn't that call into question the justification for this feature?

Also, if you try for the Journeymaster challenge (which says you can't use Quick Travel) and you have Food and Water enforced, well that just makes things a little tricky, but it really adds to the fun of the challenge.

This is starting to give me memories of NetHack - "You eat a dead jackal. The jackal was poisoned! You die. Player Kamikaze was killed on level 1 by a dead jackal."

Of course, if you want to add challenge and realism, why not go the full hog and include Bladder and Bowels meters? Then towns could pose their own challenge (in finding suitable places to lower these values) whereas dungeons could be more permissive in this regard. You could even have linked combat modifiers (if you had a high Bowels rating when jumped by five tauraxes...).

My concern is that too much effort may be being spent on rules mechanics when it is areas like NPC interaction and quest structure which I feel need development the most (e.g. in Book 1, if you discovered a traitor you had no option to confront or denounce him; another case was a merchant who remained in the same location after you completed her quest, rather than moving on and perhaps meeting you later elsewhere). More dialogue choice and a gameworld that reacts plausibly to player actions would seem a higher priority for an RPG than lots of optional rules.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Thanks for the information, but this then raises the question of why bother? If there is no real risk of starvation/dehydration then doesn't that call into question the justification for this feature?

1) Because there is a real risk of dying from starvation/dehydration if you don't pay attention your character's needs.
2) Because it adds an additional level of realism and challenge for those who want it.
3) Some players like to attack, retreat, and camp endlessly. Requiring the player to eat & drink regularly limits this tactic.
4) Because by turning on this rule, you can get a bonus to your rank at the end of the game. Them's braggin rights!
5) Because it is an OLD SCHOOL concept, and this is an old-school RPG!
6) More importantly, because this rule can be ignored, it raises the question why people keep bothering to ask us why we've included it!