Can anyone tell me what the algorithms behind the stats are?

[Arrogancy]

I'm a big optimizer, and I really enjoy the numeric side of character creation. This is unfortunate, because there basically isn't any in Eschalon, because none of the math is made explicit. Honestly, I don't understand this as a design decision; if you're going to throw the complexity of four stats, 24 skills, an origin, an axiom and a class at me, how does it simplify things to not show me math? I mean, come on, "to hit is directly derived from Dexterity and Concentration?" What does that even mean? Imagine if someone did this in real life-- "your mortgage payments will be directly derived from your interest rate, the length of the loan and the principal."

Anyway. I know I want to make a supermage. I'd like to get all the divine and elemental spells, but mostly the elemental spells. How much Wisdom and Intelligence do I need for this? That's the big question. But I'd really appreciate ANY math. How does this game actually work?

[dare49devil]

Anyway. I know I want to make a supermage. I'd like to get all the divine and elemental spells, but mostly the elemental spells. How much Wisdom and Intelligence do I need for this? That's the big question. But I'd really appreciate ANY math. How does this game actually
work?

-Well, I cannot answer most of your inquiries, but I can tell you that to learn the highest tier spells of divination you need 20 wisdom, and for the highest tier for elemental spells you need 20 intelligence.

-Also, to cast the highest tier spell at the highest rank (six) you will need a skill of 31 div for div spells, or 31 ele for ele spells.

-By the way, I am not sure if this is any help but...Let us take a Tier Three Div. spell...Smite, for example. The skill description lists something around the lines of: "Does 3-5 magic damage per casting level." So, I am guessing, casting at the highest level, which would be 6, would land a damage of between 18-30? And...the higher wisdom (to compliment div.) would cause a higher spell success rate I am guessing.

-Hope others can help you with your other questions!

[Arrogancy]

Thanks dare. That helps. I don't suppose anyone knows how lockpicking works?

[IJBall]

Anyway. I know I want to make a supermage. I'd like to get all the divine and elemental spells, but mostly the elemental spells. How much Wisdom and Intelligence do I need for this? That's the big question. But I'd really appreciate ANY math. How does this game actually
work?

-Well, I cannot answer most of your inquiries, but I can tell you that to learn the highest tier spells of divination you need 20 wisdom, and for the highest tier for elemental spells you need 20 intelligence.

That's only to cast Level 1 Tier 3 spells - to cast Level 6 Tier 3 spells you need INT=33 or WIS=33.

[dare49devil]

That's only to cast Level 1 Tier 3 spells - to cast Level 6 Tier 3 spells you need INT=33 or WIS=33.

-Aha, good catch. See, I never played a caster...So all those figures that I, well...figured out was as far as I got. =P

-Thank you!

*EDIT*

• -I was talking about to LEARN. =)
  -To cast is totally different. ^^

[xolotl]

This is unfortunate, because there basically isn't any in Eschalon, because none of the math is made explicit. Honestly, I don't understand this as a design decision; if you're going to throw the complexity of four stats, 24 skills, an origin, an axiom and a class at me, how does it simplify things to not show me math? I mean, come on, "to hit is directly derived from Dexterity and Concentration?" What does that even mean? Imagine if someone did this in real life-- "your mortgage payments will be directly derived from your interest rate, the length of the loan and the principal."

Were there really a lot of computer-based RPGs which explicitly laid out their internal equations to the user? In my experience that's been pretty rare. I had taken the absence of explicit equations to be a conscious decision on the part of the game. The comparisons to mortgages doesn't make sense, because clearly that's something dealing with hard numbers. I don't feel like I'm being deprived of something when I don't know exactly what will optimize my archery skill - how would I even know that in Real Life, apart from just practice?

Not that I haven't often wondered what the equations are, myself, but I don't feel slighted that I don't know them. :) I personally feel it makes it a better game that we don't know exactly how the engine works.

[Randomizer]

Thanks dare. That helps. I don't suppose anyone knows how lockpicking works?

The base chance depends upon the lock type. Simpler locks will be easier to open as a percent increase for lockpicking skills than those nasty dwarven crafted ones.

Most locks are 5% change per level of lockpicking. There are smaller increases for dexterity and I think intellignece.

[IJBall]

Not that I haven't often wondered what the equations are, myself, but I don't feel slighted that I don't know them. I personally feel it makes it a better game that we don't know exactly how the engine works.

It should probably be mentioned that several of those formulas have already been figured out.

For example, the Mercantile skill formula (see also: here), Cartography skill, and the relationships between stats and HP & MP (see: here and here), have already been discussed elsewhere in this forum. Also Dodge and Alchemy (various topics). And I'm sure someone here has figured out the formulas for ToHit & MaxDamage on these forums, though I don't remember any details.

I'm sure there's other posts and topics that cover these and other topics too, but these will be a start...

[Arrogancy]

xolotl, some computer RPGs that are explicit in pretty much everything:

Diablo I, II (granted, you need to go to Blizzard's website for some of it)
Baldur's Gate I, II
Icewind Dale I, II
Knights of the Old Republic I, II
Planescape: Torment
Avernum and Geneforge series (well, ok, not quite explicit, but if you look at the derived stats as you adjust points, it's very easy to see what does what)
Fallout I, II

Or, to put it another way, every computer RPG I have ever played.

Edit: Oh! And Neverwinter Nights I, II

[xolotl]

xolotl, some computer RPGs that are explicit in pretty much everything:

k, perhaps it's more common than I thought; I've actually never played any of those myself. Regardless, I stand by my opinion that the game is better for the opacity. :)

[Elveronion]

xolotl, some computer RPGs that are explicit in pretty much everything:
Baldur's Gate I, II
Icewind Dale I, II
Planescape: Torment
Edit: Oh! And Neverwinter Nights I, II

heh, these are all D&D based d20 games. the maths are well published in the handbooks.

the other games have been around a long time and greatly disected. i agree that i rather like the trial and error method of figuring out stats though i admit i wouldn't play the game more than once or twice if i always made perfect characters.

oh and one more thing arrogancy- you can do what i do and save right before you level, and then spend your points and see if you like the changes. if not reload!!

[Arrogancy]

the other games have been around a long time and greatly disected.

I'd disagree. The Diablo I and II strategy is on battle.net, which is owned by Blizzard. Fallout I and II have math in the manual. The Spiderweb games aren't direct, but they're designed so it's REALLY easy to figure out what's what. If you increase intelligence on the level up screen, it shows you how much mana you'll gain from doing that. If you can't pick a lock, it tells you how much mechanics you need. The stats needed to cast spell X are disclosed right at character creation.

xoltol, as for opacity improving the game, I would say that's pretty easy to address. You can put the math somewhere else, like on a website rather than in the manual (or, taking a nod from the gaming industry, you can sell an optional guide that lays everthing else). Those that want opacity have it. Those that want transparency get that as well.

[Damiarch]

3 points of str give you 1 lb capacity shared between weapon/shield/gauntlets for spellcasting close to npc's.

[taltamir]

I have to agree with the op in this regard. there are TWO sensible ways of doing this:
1. Have automatic leveling scheme, per skill leveling (like dungeon siege 1) or other simple method that requires no optimizations on the users behalf.
2. Have a deep and complex system where EVERY SINGLE FORMULA is given...

Otherwise the game becomes about "who spends the most time researching the formulas on the internet". Which is metagamish and annoying.
I actually had to restart once because I went with terrible choices of skills which were based on the insufficient knowledge i was given. "guess the developer's intent" is not a fun game.

There is a reason where almost every RPG out there gives you a clear description of what everything does.

For example, did you know that in Eschalon, if you want an effective magic user you need a bunch of points in meditation because it seems to exponentially increase your mana regen rate? I didn't the first time around and spent DAYS of in game time replenishing mana between fights for my mage.

And also that after maxing out your spells at 11th level, you still need to invest points in to get to level 31, because there are "higher level spells" which require 10 or 20 more skill points in the appropriate magic skill to cast? If you did not know it before it WILL come back to bite you in the ass...

As well as wasting skills on cartography when you can get it for a pittance in game as part of a quest. (first time around, I spent points on it, I had spend 8 points on it to make it level 6, only to find there is a guy that will train it to you up to level 5 or 100 per level.)

Chartography is an ancilary skill and should be SEPERATED from COMBAT skills in terms of leveling up.

There are overall a lot of bad design choices which lead to massive disparity between characters of equal level, and as subsequent levels are harder to achieve, it makes it almost required to go and read up on the forums so you will know how to metagame a complex system that is not self documenting.

I LIKE the game, I really do... but I like it DESPITE Those drawbacks. Skills should CLEARLY say what they are doing, and ancilary skills should be in game trainable and not skillpoint based, only combat skills should involve skillpoints.

[IJBall]

For example, did you know that in Eschalon, if you want an effective magic user you need a bunch of points in meditation because it seems to exponentially increase your mana regen rate? I didn't the first time around and spent DAYS of in game time replenishing mana between fights for my mage.

Actually, you don't need to put *any* points into Meditation, if you don't want to.

MP Regeneration apparently maxes out when Perception(PER)+Meditation=38.

So you can get the same effect with PER=38 as you would with PER=30 & Meditation=8. (In fact, you actually are better off with PER=38 because you get other benefits for that such as the MP gain upon leveling up...)

Beyond that, though, I too agree that I would actually prefer it if the Skill/Attribute/Combat formulas were at least posted online somewhere, so that those of us that might want to look at and study them would have that option.

I'm not saying I still wouldn't run my own tests to see how some of that stuff works. But it would be nice if you could then confirm your results by looking someplace that had the actual formulas presented from the source.