Can anyone tell me what the algorithms behind the stats are?

[xolotl]

Otherwise the game becomes about "who spends the most time researching the formulas on the internet".

Um, I disagree strongly. How are Eschalon players even ranked against each other? I don't feel cheated that somebody out there has a better character than I do. Who's forcing you to do this research? Are you really losing enjoyment because the game's mechanics aren't laid bare? I played through the game twice before even thinking about digging into the guts of the stuff, and I enjoyed both playthroughs just fine, thanks. I don't feel deprived that the game's keeping something from me. If you're the kind of person who can only get enjoyment from playing a mathematically "perfect" game, then sure, having opaque calculations might be frustrating, but in that case, perhaps a game with opaque calculations isn't really for you.

[taltamir]

For example, did you know that in Eschalon, if you want an effective magic user you need a bunch of points in meditation because it seems to exponentially increase your mana regen rate? I didn't the first time around and spent DAYS of in game time replenishing mana between fights for my mage.

Actually, you don't need to put *any* points into Meditation, if you don't want to.

MP Regeneration apparently maxes out when Perception(PER)+Meditation=38.

So you can get the same effect with PER=38 as you would with PER=30 & Meditation=8. (In fact, you actually are better off with PER=38 because you get other benefits for that such as the MP gain upon leveling up...)

Beyond that, though, I too agree that I would actually prefer it if the Skill/Attribute/Combat formulas were at least posted online somewhere, so that those of us that might want to look at and study them would have that option.

I'm not saying I still wouldn't run my own tests to see how some of that stuff works. But it would be nice if you could then confirm your results by looking someplace that had the actual formulas presented from the source.

Wow, see, I THOUGHT I learned something, but I was wrong... Now I know to keep increasing perception and save my points on meditation... heck I could have saved ALL OF THEM and not put a single point in there, what a waste, I have put 13 points in it (for a total of level 11), I just cought up with it with my actual magic level. It is a waste because I get X points per level and each level is harder to get AND the skillpoints are more valuable than the attribute points (in theory), so anyone who read this tidbit online is automatically having a stronger character

[taltamir]

Otherwise the game becomes about "who spends the most time researching the formulas on the internet".

Um, I disagree strongly. How are Eschalon players even ranked against each other? I don't feel cheated that somebody out there has a better character than I do. Who's forcing you to do this research? Are you really losing enjoyment because the game's mechanics aren't laid bare? I played through the game twice before even thinking about digging into the guts of the stuff, and I enjoyed both playthroughs just fine, thanks. I don't feel deprived that the game's keeping something from me. If you're the kind of person who can only get enjoyment from playing a mathematically "perfect" game, then sure, having opaque calculations might be frustrating, but in that case, perhaps a game with opaque calculations isn't really for you.

Thats the THING, I don't give a flying damn how strong OTHER PEOPLE are... its not a competition... But missing half the game content because I didn't understand the lacking and mysterious description of one of the many skills (for example, without meditation it is impractical to use non damaging spells)
Having everything hidden and secret so as to see who can decipher the in game math is not fun.

And its not for MOST people... I actually PREFER mathematically opaque games with a SIMPLE systems... Sometimes I enjoy a complex system + mathematically informative game. Take D&D for example, you think as many people would have been playing it had the math been a secret done in a black box the players can't see? Every computer game is emulating diablo2 for a reason.
If you look at people in general, from the most to least popular:
1. Opaque with simple mechanisms
2. Detailed formula with complex mechanisms
3. Detailed formula with simple mechanisms
4. Opaque with complex mechanisms

1 vs 2 is largely personal taste. 1v3 is a matter of immersion (you break some of it when you start giving out math formulas). 4 though, is way down there because it can really mess up a game.

The whole idea of a mathematically opaque yet highly complex system seems pretentious... Heck it is not even a matter of exact FORMULAS... the description of meditation could have easily said "adds to your effective perception attribute when determining mana regen rate" and it would be much better. without the need to specifically spell out the formulas (X + Y times Z divided by L etc)

[xolotl]

Thats the THING, I don't give a flying damn how strong OTHER PEOPLE are... its not a competition...

Well, I was replying directly to your "Otherwise the game becomes about 'who spends the most time researching the formulas on the internet'" in that case, which to me implies that you are competing with other people somehow. If that's not what you meant, I'll withdraw what I said about that. :)

But missing half the game content because I didn't understand the lacking and mysterious description of one of the many skills (for example, without meditation it is impractical to use non damaging spells)
Having everything hidden and secret so as to see who can decipher the in game math is not fun.

I guess I just don't see where you're coming from. I had no idea about the formulas on my first playthrough, and I had a very inefficient (as it turns out) magic user, which caused me no end of troubles, yet I certainly wasn't missing "half the game content." After having played through a few more times, I can say that I got at least 95% of the game on the first round through, inefficient character and all. And I had a great time playing the game.

I just don't see how opaque skill/ability formulas, even if they're complicated, detract from the game. Anyway, we seem to just have a differing opinion about it, so I'll bow out.

[Elveronion]

The whole idea of a mathematically opaque yet highly complex system seems pretentious... Heck it is not even a matter of exact FORMULAS... the description of meditation could have easily said "adds to your effective perception attribute when determining mana regen rate" and it would be much better. without the need to specifically spell out the formulas (X + Y times Z divided by L etc)

i agree with some of your complaints but I have to point out that the players manual does say essentially this...

• Meditation •
Meditation is the ability to focus your mind to better resist the effects of magickal attacks and extreme elements such as heat and cold. It also allows you to restore your spent Mana Points at a faster rate.

as i said previously i don't care that the maths aren't published. for me it is a microgame to figure out how to make a awesome character. i look for advice on the forums, i start a new character like 5-6 times before i *really* begin playing, and sometimes i have regrets for bad choices. that is why eshalon is so fun for me- like real life there are some flawed characters! but the game can still be finished without a perfectly designed character, so that is why i think it is perfect.

[taltamir]

For example, did you know that in Eschalon, if you want an effective magic user you need a bunch of points in meditation because it seems to exponentially increase your mana regen rate? I didn't the first time around and spent DAYS of in game time replenishing mana between fights for my mage.

Actually, you don't need to put *any* points into Meditation, if you don't want to.

MP Regeneration apparently maxes out when Perception(PER)+Meditation=38.

So you can get the same effect with PER=38 as you would with PER=30 & Meditation=8. (In fact, you actually are better off with PER=38 because you get other benefits for that such as the MP gain upon leveling up...)

Beyond that, though, I too agree that I would actually prefer it if the Skill/Attribute/Combat formulas were at least posted online somewhere, so that those of us that might want to look at and study them would have that option.

I'm not saying I still wouldn't run my own tests to see how some of that stuff works. But it would be nice if you could then confirm your results by looking someplace that had the actual formulas presented from the source.

I have perception 29 and meditation 11, so i already wasted some points, as I am at a total value of 40.

[Lynott]

To me the opaqueness is part of the old school nature. When I first played Ultima III, I was 12 years old and didn't know what the hell I was doing. I finished the game with what were very flawed characters. (Kind of reminiscent of the Island of Misfit Toys on Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer - a train with square wheels? A ranger with a max of 13 MP?) Anyway, the point is I had flawed characters in a game where no math was visible and I was able to finish the game.

I rolled up two characters before I settled on the one I am playing now. I may have "wasted" a skill point here or there, but in the old school games, there was no "perfect build." It was part of the experience. How many parties in Bard's Tale did I create before I got where some characters could survive? As long as I can finish the game with an imperfect character, I am cool with that.

I too am curious about some of the math, but it is not required for me to enjoy the game. In fact in a game like this it may take away from it, despite my curiousity.