Finding Book II harder then book I

[Saxon1974]

It appears that book II is a bit more difficult than Book I. It could be due to the way I built my character but Im about level 5 in the game and having a bit of trouble not getting so beat up in every fight I have to rest ALOT. Resting alot keeps using up all my food

I seem to be having trouble deciding where to spend my attribute points for a fighter. I have been putting them into Strength, Dex, End and Concentration pretty evenly. Is that a bad idea should I be more focused on Strenth and Speed?

I want a fighter where I can use a bow, alchemy and pick locks. It seems like there are so many usefull skills im spreading myself a little too thin...

I like a game thats a challenge, but Im just wondering if Im spreading too thin here....

[BasiliskWrangler]

Keep at in Saxon1974!

Book II is harder than Book I if you have ANY of the rules turned on. Book I had none of the rules that you see at the start of the game.

Everyone- if you want to play with "Book I's level of difficulty" then turn off all the rules!

If you play with rules on, remember the game has all sorts of ways for you to succeed within the rules. It takes some experimentation, but trust me- every one of our beta testers, no matter how hard they found the game initially, were masters of the game by the time they finished their second play through.

[CrazyBernie]

For a bow user, you should focus on Dex and Concentration. For melee, Strength and speed, but add dex or concentration for added ToHit. With my first run as a melee fighter, I dumped everything into Str and End, and had a fighter that could hit hard, and take a hit, but couldn't land a hit. 0_o

[Sajen]

I was in the same boat, playing a fighter/paladin and always running out of food when resting and having to rest tons because I was always taking a beating, because the game is difficult (which I applaud!).

I'd suggest starting a new game and dropping the food and water requirement. I did and the game is so much more fun. Now I can go anywhere exploring as deep and off the beaten path as I want, and go into the dungeons without worrying about running out of food.

Second, get the divination skill and the spell divine heal. You need wisdom 15, and then you can start healing yourself. I now am using divine healing on level 2 casting power, and it heals all my hit points back (after casting it over and over) without resting all the time.

[kopema]

It takes some experimentation, but trust me- every one of our beta testers, no matter how hard they found the game initially, were masters of the game by the time they finished their second play through.

Um, do you understand that many, many people don't think of trial and error as the "fun" part of a role-playing game? And most people who buy ANY game don't play it all the way through even once. It really looks like you intentionally went out of your way to make the game frustrating to new players.

Of course I understand that an indie game will necessarily have some flaws in it; facets that lead to "playing the system" instead of adventuring, thinking about strategy, etc. But when you say you did some of this stuff on purpose - what was the thought process there?

Typically, difficulty settings in a computer game will be just that -- things that make the game more or less challenging. In the case of an RPG, that would usually mean changing difficulty of combat, etc. After trying a few settings, I realized that they all really just add annoyance. If you'd just used that word, it would have made the decision for a new player a lot easier (although of course it would still have begged the obvious question.)

I get the impression your beta testing consisted of mainly people who had played through your first game a whole bunch of times. Why are you putting design effort into trying to please people who are already fanatics? I don't mean to sound insensitive, but isn't it safe to say they're going to play the game anyway, and maybe it's the less committed customers you should be thinking about when you're designing the first segment of a game?

[CrazyBernie]

Hmmm... what's that old adage.... I think it goes something like....

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Eschalon is first and foremost a game designed for fans of hardcore, "old school" RPGs. If you're new to RPGs, you're in the wrong place. However, there's plenty of forum goers here that would be happy to lend advice to a newbie.

The difficulty settings are for those who like challenge games... if you dont like them, or are annoyed by them, no one is holding a gun to your head. Complaining about an optional feature is like complaining that a burger doesn't come with the cheese that you didn't want.

[Randomizer]

The problem with making a fighter that can hit existed in Book 1 too.

I went with endurance to have the hit points to withstand a fight. Then I put skill points to a weapon skill. Strength and dexterity were increased after a few levels when endurance was 40.

There isn't one right way to make a character for a given class. But spreading out points tends to make the game harder. Concentration in a few skills and abilities works best.

[Buckets]

I encourage you to read Thomas Riegsecker's interview regarding Book II at:

http://rampantgames.com/blog/?p=493

I like how he explains his rationale for making the game the way he did. I especially like this quote:
"Old-school, to me, means that we give the player ultimate control over the development of their character. With a complex array of attributes, stats, and skills you have the freedom to experiment with your character’s design- and that means you have the potential to make a jack-of-all-trades dud…or a god-like titan that can walk through the game with little effort...."

I agree with him that giving the player ultimate control is what I like about old-school rpg's. Book II is especially likable because you can make it as hard or as easy as you wish. Wonderful! I love this game.

[Rune_74]

It takes some experimentation, but trust me- every one of our beta testers, no matter how hard they found the game initially, were masters of the game by the time they finished their second play through.

Um, do you understand that many, many people don't think of trial and error as the "fun" part of a role-playing game? And most people who buy ANY game don't play it all the way through even once. It really looks like you intentionally went out of your way to make the game frustrating to new players.

Of course I understand that an indie game will necessarily have some flaws in it; facets that lead to "playing the system" instead of adventuring, thinking about strategy, etc. But when you say you did some of this stuff on purpose - what was the thought process there?

Typically, difficulty settings in a computer game will be just that -- things that make the game more or less challenging. In the case of an RPG, that would usually mean changing difficulty of combat, etc. After trying a few settings, I realized that they all really just add annoyance. If you'd just used that word, it would have made the decision for a new player a lot easier (although of course it would still have begged the obvious question.)

I get the impression your beta testing consisted of mainly people who had played through your first game a whole bunch of times. Why are you putting design effort into trying to please people who are already fanatics? I don't mean to sound insensitive, but isn't it safe to say they're going to play the game anyway, and maybe it's the less committed customers you should be thinking about when you're designing the first segment of a game?

I'm a bit confused with your stance here...the game is not that hard, even when running out of food there is a way to get more. trial and error is one of the things alot of rpg fans actually like, Jrpg fans tend to like it less due to the fact those games you do not have many options. I totally agree with designs that make the player think, we do way to much hand holding today.

[Slarty]

That IS his stance, that the game is not that hard. (It's not.) Food and water don't really make it harder. They add a little busy-work -- either you drop a few hundred gold on 2 spells or you make sure you buy food and visit wells throughout the game. For me personally, I don't find them annoying and I don't find them enjoyable, they are pretty neutral. Same thing for repairing. The question is why those settings are labelled as affecting difficulty... BW let the player choose whether or not to use them since opinion about them was so divided here. I had that context so I wasn't confused by the "difficulty settings" label. If I was new to Eschalon, though, I would be confused by that label.

[CrazyBernie]

It's a different kind of difficulty. People have this preconceived notion that more difficult means tougher enemies. Someone who rolls a pure melee warrior and uses the food and water rules may well have a harder time managing his/her hunger/thirst levels. Obviously you could take the easy route and roll a cleric/mage and pick up the create water/food spells... but that sort of defeats the purpose.

The game isn't hard for people with lots of RPG experience (i.e. the Min/Maxers), but it can be difficult for newer RPGers, casual RPGers, and RPG "Purists" (i.e. a Warrior can't be slinging around fireballs or picking off enemies at 100 yards).

It's all about challenging yourself... like the crazy people who used to play Doom on Nightmare mode with just their fists... except now you get a score, and possibly better equipment/more experience as a result.

Perhaps for Book III, "Challenges" and "Difficulty Modes" could be separated and refined. Then everyone could be happy... except for those who are never happy, of course.

The best part? I'm not really all that interested in all that stuff I just rambled on about... I'm a storyline/exploration kinda guy. ^_^

[Saxon1974]

Keep at in Saxon1974!

Book II is harder than Book I if you have ANY of the rules turned on. Book I had none of the rules that you see at the start of the game.

Everyone- if you want to play with "Book I's level of difficulty" then turn off all the rules!

If you play with rules on, remember the game has all sorts of ways for you to succeed within the rules. It takes some experimentation, but trust me- every one of our beta testers, no matter how hard they found the game initially, were masters of the game by the time they finished their second play through.

Oh dont worry Im going to keep at it! I really wasn't complaining that the game was too hard, I was just asking for some advice on how to spread my attribute points out is all...

I applaud that the game is hard with all the rules turned on, the harder the better for me!

[Krafen]

I thought the difficulty options were clear. They tell you exactly what effect they have.

Item decay and food/water make the beginning of the game more difficult. After a bit, they can be negated through magic and/or skills.

The other two options serve to limit the power of the almighty save/load spell. They increase difficulty indirectly by limiting the player's ability to manipulate fate.

I am a little curious why there is not also an option to increase the strength of enemies directly. I like having the more interesting difficulty options available, but it might be a good addition.