Maybe a nitpick but...

[wayninja]

I'm sorry, but I find it a bit silly on some of the things that my character can't identify.

A bar of gold? Ok, I'll grudgingly accept the fact that I have no problem carrying around thousands of gold pieces but have no idea what it looks like in bar form.

Fine China? It's getting a bit harder to suspend my disbelief. I know I drank a memory affecting serum and all... Ok, I'll choke down the fact that a memory serum explains it.

Dried meat? Er... what? I can't identify dried meat? Lots of people must starve in this land...

Books? Are they are written in codes with magical cyphers??? I lose all ability to find this the least bit realistic when it's a book I've already read that I can't identify. Same goes for spells I already know.

Look, I understand the need to promote the lore skill and all, but is there anything that can be done to 'auto ID' stuff I know or have ID'd before or to remove the need to identify mundane things like food?

[BasiliskWrangler]

I put it like this- maybe you know what the item is, but can't identify it completely...

> A bar of gold? But is it really pure gold or just scrap metal meant to look like gold?

> Fine China? But where did it come from? What is it worth?

> Dried Meat? Looks like it, but what kind of meat is it? Is it safe to eat?

> A Book? Eh, okay I can't come up with anything for this...

Your ability to ID items are based on the object's rarity...and object rarity is set to distribute them evenly throughout the game (so you don't wake up and find a Great Sword in the rain barrel beside your house, and a fork in a chest at game's end.)

[wayninja]

The dried meat argument I can buy. The rest is a little weak.

You have gold coins, gold is heavy, the bar of gold is heavy... it really wouldn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's gold.

Do you really need to know where the china came from or what it's worth? It's not like you can actively bargain with merchants on this stuff anyway. It's china. You will get for it what the merchant pays.

I get the distribution and have no problem with it... it just takes me out of the R in RPG when I have an unknown book (that I've already read) or an unknown spell that I already know in my inventory. *shrugs*, again, not a big deal here, but I just don't see any real 'fun' in ID'ing some of these things.

[TwilightWaits]

Could be a bar of pyrite. Given the similarity between the two, a bar of one could easily be mistaken for the other to the untrained eye.

[wayninja]

Could be a bar of pyrite. Given the similarity between the two, a bar of one could easily be mistaken for the other to the untrained eye.

Who would make a bar of pyrite? If we are going to assume that, why not have to identify gold coins? They could be some inferior metal/mineral, right?

Rhetorical questions aside, although they may look similar, pyrite weighs significantly less than gold and since our hero regularly carries around a good amount of gold, it wouldn't be hard to compare.

[Randomizer]

A better analogy would be is that a bar of lead with a thin coating of gold or the real thing.

If you have an identified version of the same item then you automatically have it stack and identify. Too bad this doesn't work with armor.

[wayninja]

A better analogy would be is that a bar of lead with a thin coating of gold or the real thing.

If you have an identified version of the same item then you automatically have it stack and identify. Too bad this doesn't work with armor.

Ok, yes, you could coat a lead bar with gold like that and fool a lot of people... but why???? If 'fake' bars were in the game, I'd buy this argument.

[CrazyBernie]

Identifying an item strikes me as a combination of knowing both "what it is" and "what is it worth." By having an item be "unknown" you are basically saying you are unfamiliar with one of the two, or both.

A book could be in another dialect, or even another language altogether... Identifying it might involve translating enough for you to understand it's meaning, if not read it word for word.

Your china argument almost makes sense... except the fact is, if you're not familiar with it, the merchant will take advantage of the fact and offer you less money for it. You can take it, or come back later when you better know its value, or have further improved your bargaining skills.

I'm not saying that the ID system couldn't use some improvement, but it's a game, and no system is perfect. At some point you do have to use your imagination to fill in the gaps. One could come up with plausible explanations all day long, but it won't matter if you don't want to believe any of it.

[wayninja]

Identifying an item strikes me as a combination of knowing both "what it is" and "what is it worth." By having an item be "unknown" you are basically saying you are unfamiliar with one of the two, or both.

Wouldn't "what it's worth" be better suited to the mercantile skill?

A book could be in another dialect, or even another language altogether... Identifying it might involve translating enough for you to understand it's meaning, if not read it word for word.

Sure I guess, seems like a reach though given the geography. Would you need it translated if you had already read it?

Your china argument almost makes sense... except the fact is, if you're not familiar with it, the merchant will take advantage of the fact and offer you less money for it. You can take it, or come back later when you better know its value, or have further improved your bargaining skills.

Again, this facet is covered by the mercantile skill.

I'm not saying that the ID system couldn't use some improvement, but it's a game, and no system is perfect. At some point you do have to use your imagination to fill in the gaps. One could come up with plausible explanations all day long, but it won't matter if you don't want to believe any of it.

I'll believe rational arguments as I've already conceded. However, I will not accept weak excuses for the sake of 'imagination'. I realize it's just a game and titled the thread appropriately. I'm not arguing for removing having to ID items or the lore skill completely. I don't even care that you can have 2 identical weapons/armors in your inventory without knowing what one of them is. I'm simply advocating a more judicial use of marking things 'unknown'.

[CrazyBernie]

Wouldn't "what it's worth" be better suited to the mercantile skill?

Again, this facet is covered by the mercantile skill.

Not really. The mercantile skill is all about the hustle. But you have to be more familiar with an item's worth before you can really bargain for it.

I'll believe rational arguments as I've already conceded. However, I will not accept weak excuses for the sake of 'imagination'. I realize it's just a game and titled the thread appropriately. I'm not arguing for removing having to ID items or the lore skill completely. I don't even care that you can have 2 identical weapons/armors in your inventory without knowing what one of them is. I'm simply advocating a more judicial use of marking things 'unknown'.

You can comparison ID items in your inventory. Simply pick up an unknown item and drop it on top of its known counterpart to ID it.

I'm not telling you to accept anything. I'm telling you that compromises were made and simply offering an alternative take on the subject. But you are arguing awfully hard for a self admitted "nitpick."

[wayninja]

Not really. The mercantile skill is all about the hustle. But you have to be more familiar with an item's worth before you can really bargain for it.

Well, exactly. You have to be familiar with what it's worth in order to bargain. Hence, knowing an objects value is part and parcel to bargaining (mercantile skill). I can identify a comic book but have no idea what it's worth.


I think I just have a different take than you on Identifying an item. You believe that to ID an item is to know what it is and it's value, I think you only need to know what it is. Since the price you get for it is dictated by the mercantile skill, it seems more reasonable to me that knowing it's value more is more accurately controlled by the mercantile skill. I can buy the argument that you need to know what a weapon is in order to use it effectively, I can't really get behind the argument that you need to know what a weapon is worth in order to stick the pointy end into a baddy.

You can comparison ID items in your inventory. Simply pick up an unknown item and drop it on top of its known counterpart to ID it.

Does this work with non-stackable items? It's nice that it does for stackable items, but if it doesn't for non-stackable, it's inconsistent at best.

I'm not telling you to accept anything. I'm telling you that compromises were made and simply offering an alternative take on the subject. But you are arguing awfully hard for a self admitted "nitpick."

Meh, the degree to which I argue for something isn't necessarily tied to how important it is. It's not important, but that doesn't mean I'll accept things blindly. I appreciate the alternative take. Again, I'm not insisting that this gets changed, just trying to show that for some of these, compromises really didn't need to be made.

[CrazyBernie]

Yes you can comparison ID non stackable items.

As for the rest of your post... hold that thought... I'm away from my laptop, and there's no way I'm typing a whole response on my Droid >.<

I've got a headache to sleep off. Stay tuned!!!

[Kreador Freeaxe]

We had a lot of discussions about this during the Book II development process, and I think the real answer is that, yes, there is a more robust way the identifying of items could be done, so that various types of items were more easily identified based on the character's skill levels and stats, but to do that would add a number of variables to the data for each item, which adds more difficulty in development and more room for errors in testing and play. The current method, while not ideal, keeps it simple, and I'd rather a minor annoyance in a playable game, than a richly complex game that's buggy and another year in development.

[CrazyBernie]

Well, exactly. You have to be familiar with what it's worth in order to bargain. Hence, knowing an objects value is part and parcel to bargaining (mercantile skill). I can identify a comic book but have no idea what it's worth.


I think I just have a different take than you on Identifying an item. You believe that to ID an item is to know what it is and it's value, I think you only need to know what it is. Since the price you get for it is dictated by the mercantile skill, it seems more reasonable to me that knowing it's value more is more accurately controlled by the mercantile skill. I can buy the argument that you need to know what a weapon is in order to use it effectively, I can't really get behind the argument that you need to know what a weapon is worth in order to stick the pointy end into a baddy.

Ever seen one of those antique roadshows?? People bring junk they have from all over to have it appraised by professionals. Using the china again as an example...

You have a set of china plates that's been in your family for years. They're in good condition, but they don't look particularly well made. You brought them to a pawn shop, but the guy just shrugged and offered you ten bucks for the set. You could probably haggle with him for fifteen, but you decide to hang onto them. Bringing them to the road show, you have the "China Guy" take a look at them. After spending a few minutes checking them out, China Guy informs you that you've stumbled onto a rare find. The design dates back to the Yin-Ling Dynasty, and the stamp on the bottom identifies these china plates as made by Su-Long Chu, personal potter to Emperor Chow Yun. The rough design indicates that they were made in Su-Long's apprentice years before he was actually in service to the emperor. These plates are highly sought after, and generally bring as much as ten thousand dollars to the seller.

Armed with this knowledge, you find a collector and are able to bargain with him for eight thousand dollars. Not the full value, but still far more than you would have gotten when you thought they were "just another set of china plates." Now it's off to buy that motorcycle you've been eyeballing!

As I mentioned previously, Lore to me is about knowing what an item is or what its "true value" is. But it's usually both, as with the case of the china plates, or a sword that you don't want to use because you're not exactly sure what it's made of, who made it, or what enchantment it carries.

Mercantile on the other hand, is all about haggling for the best price. If you don't know what an item is worth, you can still haggle, but you won't get anywhere near what you want for it if you don't know its true value. Your mercantile skill determines the best price you can get based on what already know the item is worth. Just read the description of the skill: "Mercantile is the ability to negotiate better prices when buying and selling items from merchants. The higher this Skill is, the cheaper items become when purchasing and the more money you can get when selling items." There's no mention of an item's worth, just your ability to negotiate prices.

As far as Book II is concerned, there's probably not much that can be done with the current ID system. With Book III on the other hand, I'll be pestering BW to revamp the ID system anyways... mainly because of the "reading books" situation. The fact that an item's rarity is also linked to its ID status is the reason we're even having this conversation. There are certain items that are rare, but should be easily identifiable. I also would like to see stuff like fake healing potions that poison you when you drink them before having them properly identified...

[wayninja]

Ever seen one of those antique roadshows?? People bring junk they have from all over to have it appraised by professionals. Using the china again as an example...

You have a set of china plates that's been in your family for years. They're in good condition, but they don't look particularly well made. You brought them to a pawn shop, but the guy just shrugged and offered you ten bucks for the set. You could probably haggle with him for fifteen, but you decide to hang onto them. Bringing them to the road show, you have the "China Guy" take a look at them. After spending a few minutes checking them out, China Guy informs you that you've stumbled onto a rare find. The design dates back to the Yin-Ling Dynasty, and the stamp on the bottom identifies these china plates as made by Su-Long Chu, personal potter to Emperor Chow Yun. The rough design indicates that they were made in Su-Long's apprentice years before he was actually in service to the emperor. These plates are highly sought after, and generally bring as much as ten thousand dollars to the seller.

Using the in game mechanics, you are unable to drink out of the cups or eat off the plate because you don't know what they are worth. That makes sense to you? I understand what you are saying, and there is a point there, but ultimately the system the game works on gives the 'what it's worth' functions to the merchant, not some arcane scholars or cultural historians unless I missed them in my playthrough. There is no situation in the game, based on your example where this could happen. Merchants ALWAYS know exactly what an item is worth. There is no 'shrugging of shoulders' and lowballing on offers. Also, by your own admission, you know that they are china plates, they aren't 'unknown'.

Armed with this knowledge, you find a collector and are able to bargain with him for eight thousand dollars. Not the full value, but still far more than you would have gotten when you thought they were "just another set of china plates." Now it's off to buy that motorcycle you've been eyeballing!


As I mentioned previously, Lore to me is about knowing what an item is or what its "true value" is. But it's usually both, as with the case of the china plates, or a sword that you don't want to use because you're not exactly sure what it's made of, who made it, or what enchantment it carries.

Not wanting to use a sword because you don't know who made it, what it's made of or how much it's worth is preferable to getting eaten? That just doesn't jive to me. Also, for some reason your character can identify if an item is enchanted or not without ever knowing what its, which again seems inconsistent to me. Again, if there were any depth to this, it would be a sound argument to me, but I haven't seen a weapon yet that is cursed, would be ruined if used or otherwise would prevent me from wanting to use it (other than it being inferior to my current weapon).

Mercantile on the other hand, is all about haggling for the best price. If you don't know what an item is worth, you can still haggle, but you won't get anywhere near what you want for it if you don't know its true value. Your mercantile skill determines the best price you can get based on what already know the item is worth. Just read the description of the skill: "Mercantile is the ability to negotiate better prices when buying and selling items from merchants. The higher this Skill is, the cheaper items become when purchasing and the more money you can get when selling items." There's no mention of an item's worth, just your ability to negotiate prices.

Again, it just seems wrong to me that you could be a master of mercantilism but have no idea what you are haggling for is worth. The word mercantile stems from the word merchant, who are the ones in Eschalon that seem to know what everything is worth.

As far as Book II is concerned, there's probably not much that can be done with the current ID system. With Book III on the other hand, I'll be pestering BW to revamp the ID system anyways... mainly because of the "reading books" situation. The fact that an item's rarity is also linked to its ID status is the reason we're even having this conversation. There are certain items that are rare, but should be easily identifiable. I also would like to see stuff like fake healing potions that poison you when you drink them before having them properly identified...

I don't want you to misunderstand. I'm not saying that you should overhaul the entire system or delay releases by years coming up with elaborate ID functions with tons of variables based on level etc. I'm simply saying that there are some things in the world where it's spurious at best to tag them as unknown. Simple as that.