What's missing??

Here's where all things related to Book II are being discussed!

What do you feel is missing from Book II??

More quests. :?:
80
36%
More difficulty options. :!:
16
7%
More enemies!! Grimlock Smash!! :twisted:
24
11%
Some wildlife would be nice. Add a little... flair. :idea:
29
13%
More NPCs!! Bring on the victims - er populace. :?
33
15%
Some previously mentioned feature that didn't make it in the game. I really wanted it!! *pout* :(
9
4%
More in-game lore. I'm a read-a-holic. 8)
12
5%
I think Book II is pretty well rounded. :)
16
7%
CrazyBernie's ugly mug! Grimlock Smash More!! :shock:
1
0%
 
Total votes: 220

Forral
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Forral »

I would actually argue that maintaining the game's balance is of utmost importance. Whether that is through limiting how many rings and necklaces the character can use, or ensuring that all skills and abilities have their place and use. Because Balance relates to maintaining a stable difficulty curve, and difficulty comes hand in hand with the satisfaction and fun of accomplishment. If something is too easy it just doesn't feel like an accomplishment when you prevail, and if something is too difficult chances are it'll just feel lame when you in the end win with cheap tactics.

If you allow someone to wear as many rings as they like, you're effectively surrendering all of your control on the difficulty curve as a designer. However, for something to actually be fun it'll need to provide a balanced challange. What a balanced challange actually entails is naturally going to vary from person to person, but if you let people equip as many rings and amulets as they feel like, you're either going to get a game that's incredibly easy if you choose to wear many accessories, or one that's incredibly difficult if you choose not to wear all that you find.

I guess that promotes player choice though: "I can choose to be strong, or I can choose to be weak"

That's however not the kind of choice I would promote in a game; the good choice is a given, and it actually eradicates the choice that it would represent.

It would naturally be possible to design a game entirely around the idea that the player can, and should, wear every ring or amulet that they come across in their journey, but that would also detract from the special-ness of finding a new good ring or a unique amulet. Instead of being "Wow! This new amulet is much better than the one I'm wearing", it'd instead generate a response akin to: "That's a pretty amulet, I'll wear that one too."

I don't think that's a good idea though.
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CrazyBernie
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Re: What's missing??

Post by CrazyBernie »

helivoy wrote: Crazy Bernie, that's why it's a game and not life. If fiction, or any other creative simulation, were truly "life-like" its readers/players/practitioners would promptly keel over from frustration and/or boredom.
Ok, that doesn't really answer the question, nor give a explanation to your suggestion. If you're trying to give someone the impression that they're trekking through a flat, desolate wasteland... having wildlife, hilly terrain, and a lemonade stand isn't the way to do it. It's got nothing to do with video game vs real life.
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Buckets
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Buckets »

I know this was someone else's idea but I loved it so I'll request it here. I'd love it if there was a specialty shop somewhere in the game, where you can spend all that extra gold you're carrying around and could order a magic item crafted for you. You select what type of item, base damage, weight and special magic features. The item gets priced out and you decide to either order it or not. Then you'd have to come back to pick it up. It could be anything from a special ring of +6 lock picking to a lightweight sheild with deflection of projectiles. Any combination is possible. The menus required to create such an item could be quite extensive but if you know you can get just the item you need by saving up, it could be quite exciting. :D Of course, for balance, the item has to cost an arm and a leg and maybe you can only order 1 in the whole game or at least a month apart from each other. Also, it would be great if this shop allows you to pay with some of the high priced items that other shops can't buy from you. Otherwise sometimes you get stuck with these items for a very long time.

Also, a shop that stocks quest/puzzle items that got accidentally dropped/lost should exist somewhere mysterious, but not too far into the game so that early quests can be recovered. It could be the same shop as above.

Having said all that, I love the game as is. It's similar enough to old school rpg's that I've played and loved in the past. In my opinion, nothing is really missing. It surely holds my interest all the way through except for a few areas of disappointment like the zoo that had no obvious purpose, but if that can be fleshed out with a release of an add-on this summer, I'm as happy as can be. :D
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

Buckets wrote:I know this was someone else's idea but I loved it so I'll request it here. I'd love it if there was a specialty shop somewhere in the game, where you can spend all that extra gold you're carrying around and could order a magic item crafted for you.
I, too, would like to see item (not just weapon) crafting in Book III.

This is allowed to a limited extent in Avernum 6, and the underpinnings for it are there in Book II (e.g. things like vellum, wolf pelts, and bars of metal, and alchemical reagents like Noximander Venom, all appear in the game), so I don't think it'll be too much of a stretch to add it to Book III, if not to Book II...
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mkreku
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Re: What's missing??

Post by mkreku »

I miss clear character development paths for the various character classes there is.

For example, I wanted to build an assassin out of my rogue, but in reality it just didn't work.

Also, I am missing complete sets of equipment for the various character classes! Not only should there be equipment for all the different playing styles, there should be variation among the equipment for each style too! That means Book 2 is missing a whole lot of stuff..

The feeling I get from this project (beginning in Book 1 and now in Book 2) is that they don't have good content creation tools. It always feels like they've had to create the little content there is in these games through pain and perseverance. Good content creation tools alleviates this pain and makes it so much easier to create every idea you have AND add extras (hidden quests, more NPC's, unnecessary detail, equipment variations, more cities, more stories, more enemies and so on).

I really hope that, for Book 3, you employ MORE content creators. The game engine is fantastic. The stability is perfect. The game has a charm that's irresistible. But there's just not enough content! Again it seems Basilisk Games lacked a clear content path and actually forgot to add enough stuff for all classes and quests!
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CrazyBernie
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Re: What's missing??

Post by CrazyBernie »

mkreku wrote:I miss clear character development paths for the various character classes there is.

For example, I wanted to build an assassin out of my rogue, but in reality it just didn't work.

Also, I am missing complete sets of equipment for the various character classes! Not only should there be equipment for all the different playing styles, there should be variation among the equipment for each style too! That means Book 2 is missing a whole lot of stuff..

The feeling I get from this project (beginning in Book 1 and now in Book 2) is that they don't have good content creation tools. It always feels like they've had to create the little content there is in these games through pain and perseverance. Good content creation tools alleviates this pain and makes it so much easier to create every idea you have AND add extras (hidden quests, more NPC's, unnecessary detail, equipment variations, more cities, more stories, more enemies and so on).

I really hope that, for Book 3, you employ MORE content creators. The game engine is fantastic. The stability is perfect. The game has a charm that's irresistible. But there's just not enough content! Again it seems Basilisk Games lacked a clear content path and actually forgot to add enough stuff for all classes and quests!
Are you aware of the incredibly small size of the Basilisk Games development team? Also, Eschalon is not a class based game, which is why the "class" content might have seemed a little bare.
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Kreador Freeaxe
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Kreador Freeaxe »

mkreku wrote:I miss clear character development paths for the various character classes there is.

For example, I wanted to build an assassin out of my rogue, but in reality it just didn't work.

Also, I am missing complete sets of equipment for the various character classes! Not only should there be equipment for all the different playing styles, there should be variation among the equipment for each style too! That means Book 2 is missing a whole lot of stuff..
It's part of the design aesthetic of Eschalon that it not have skill trees that limit the player's ability to create any sort of character--be it ultra-specialized or total hybrid monstrosity--that the player wishes. I can't imagine why you'd have had a problem building an assassin type character. Pump up piercing weapons, throwing weapons, hide-in-shadows, move silently. Push up Dex and Con to maximize your ability to hit others and not be seen, heard, or hit yourself.

As for specific sets for every "class," given that there are a near infinite number of ways that players can develop their characters, you'd have so much junk that the game would need two DVDs to ship it out to players, and most of it would never come up in a given game.

Now, I'd like to see more stuff in the world of Eschalon, certainly, but there's so much here already that I've been playing for 30 game hours and I've barely scratched the surface (I admittedly have a very indirect style of play--and early on as a Ranger, I did a lot of running away and sniping).
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arcaliea
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Re: What's missing??

Post by arcaliea »

Really enjoyed the game. As mkreku says, more content would be nice, if possible. I know it's a one-man team, but there's only so far you can go with 'pull X switch' dungeons and entire areas that just have trees, grass, trees and grass. Book III doesn't need to be bigger than Book II, but having more imaginative and unique setups like tactical ambushes, abandoned areas with a story you pick up the pieces of, etc., would make it much much better.
Rune_74
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Rune_74 »

helivoy wrote:Jedi Learner, I've been playing Rogue-style games (which is the category that Eschalon belongs to) since the first 26-level alphanumeric game first showed up on UNIX. I enjoy this kind of game for the quality of the worldbuilding and the excitement of the exploration. So there's nothing wrong with an overpowered character that gets to walk around relatively unmolested. The game developer can do the challenge bit, just as with foraging and repair.

Crazy Bernie, that's why it's a game and not life. If fiction, or any other creative simulation, were truly "life-like" its readers/players/practitioners would promptly keel over from frustration and/or boredom.
I have no idea how you include escalon with rogue like games, they are not even close.

I voted for more NPC's. I'm a firm believer in having NPC's that may not advance the main storyline, but will allow the player to ineteract with the world to get further background. One of the areas that worked with ultima so well was that each town had a blacksmith, a cook etc. I would also like the relegion fleshed out quite a bit. Basilisk hears this stuff from me alot:P
Randomizer
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Randomizer »

I went with more quests to have better reasons to talk to those obscure NPCs besides anything new in the shop.

I also wanted more rules options. I'm hoping for more of a fighting challenge like the option to increase monster resistances to certain attacks or make them continue pursuit across map boundaries.
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IJBall
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Re: What's missing??

Post by IJBall »

Jedi_Learner wrote:Some of my thoughts:
  • I would love to see a shortcut key for switching combat modes. Perhaps the TAB key?
I'd settle for getting the RETURN/ENTER back for switching Weapons/Armor sets!

But, yeah, that's a good idea, to have another 'hot key' for Combat Modes.

I also wouldn't mind a 'hot key' for pulling up "Stats" screen (maybe 'Z'?...).

I'd also like being able to switch in the general.cfg file where game screenshots are saved...
agnari
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Re: What's missing??

Post by agnari »

a few dozen more quests for leveling would be nice.

this game is more in the lines of M&M games where once you cleared an area of monsters no more would spawn. which made repeated trips across an area nice and without dangerous suprises. BUT, unlike those games by the end you aren't at super high levels and not bothering to train skills even if you've got billions in gold to do so, just no point.

there are SO MANY skills, skill points to increase are so few and far between that by the end of the game the char is just getting to a decent playable state. with dozens of skills you want to increase.

Maybe, a solution OTHER then random respawns of monsters (so a dedicated fanatic could spend/waste countless hours repeatedly killing the beasties for extra levels and the training points) would be to provide more then the stock 3 skill training points every level, say 4 or maybe dare we wish for 5 (keep 3 for the attribute stats like strenght, wisdom, endurance, ect.).

I could see keeping it at 3 IF and ONLY IF, you started in book III with your stats from II. but from what i've seen, i expect much like the start of II, in III it will be re-rolling a newbie lvl 1.
Adventuring my way thru RPGs one pixel at a time.
csharp0
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Re: What's missing??

Post by csharp0 »

shortcut key for switching saved combat combinations.
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agnari
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Re: What's missing??

Post by agnari »

yes i agree to more shortcut keys for equipment configurations.

ie, 1) for bludgeoning barrels, 2) one for archery, 3) another for primary weapon, 4 and/or 5) for elemental or divination spell casting and maybe a 6 and/or 7) for alchemy or equip repait tasks.


more spell balance in scroll distrubtion. in 2.x times thru the game i've discovered the portal scroll once. on my mage char in the final dungeon 2 or 3 floor. at which point really wasn't much of a chance to even use it. would have been much nicer to find that one way earlier.


method of splitting stacks of elixiers. typically a right click will let you grab one of a stack (as in alch stacks) and move it out of the stack. but with elixier's it just consumes it. early on when i can i collect/horde stuff i know will be needed later but then when needed the stacks are too burdensome (ok NEXT game i won't make that mistake). what i'd like to do is take X from the stack and go thru a quest and then come back later for more.
Adventuring my way thru RPGs one pixel at a time.
Farwalker
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Re: What's missing??

Post by Farwalker »

This is a small thing, but shift click is used to activate feats, and also used to force attack an NPC. I've actually had a few cases where I wanted to attack an NPC but didn't want to use the feat - because of the double binding I didn't have that option.
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