Hiding, Invisibility and Silence - How it works, How to fix

[IJBall]

For some reason Hide in Shadow doesn't seem to be working for me. I have skill lvl 4 via ring and cloak, and I never get an icon for it--inlcuding when in total darkness in Westwillow. Am I not getting something?

Are you trying to Hide in Shadows while using Cat's Eyes?

If so, there seems to be a bug currently in which using Cat's Eyes is invalidating Hide in Shadows.

I'm hoping this bug will be fixed for v1.04... [Edit: And it was fixed in v1.04!! ]

[Farwalker]

Okay Farwalker, I have finally took the time to thoroughly read through this post and consider each suggestion.

The biggest issue with your suggestions is that the Hide in Shadow / Invisibility system is near capacity right now. What I mean is: there is not a whole lot of room for improvements to the current system...I would need to rewrite large chunks of code to gain some of the improvements you've suggested. I am not opposed to doing so, but it might be a little much for Book II.

The changes I have made for 1.04 are as follows:

1) if you make a sound while Hidden in Shadow, your Hidden status is removed. This change binds the two skills (Move Silent & Hide in Shadows) more closely and ultimately reduces some of Hide in Shadow power.

2) Invisibility has a shorter duration. It's still long enough at level 4-6 to cause some serious damage to your opponents, but the shorter duration does lessen its overall power.

3) Entities can now target you if you are invisible AND producing light (Torch, Gravedigger Flame, or Lantern), They still get a harsh ToHit penalty, but they will know where you are and they will attack.

Thanks BW - these changes will make a big difference!
How difficult would it be to allow entities to target you if you are invisible and they hear you as well? That would fully integrate silence into gameplay and sensibly restrain some of the power of invisibility as well. (You might not have to reduce invisibility duration as much or at all.)

For example, that would mean if I'm invisible and attack enemy 1, enemy 2 who is standing right next to me while I make a huge racket beating on enemy 1 will have a clue and attack me too. But if I'm completely silent while whacking enemy 1, enemy 2 will remain clueless and not attack me.

Is that workable?

[niek]

Interesting topic...

I like the idea of allowing for silent attacks, but only if they'd be instant kills out of sight of other enemies. Even if the attack is silent, an injured enemy usually is not...

In a similar vein I'd expect a first attack from a hidden/invisible character to alert the enemy without being able to track him/her (unless it's melee I guess). A second attack would give a (perceptive?) enemy the chance to retaliate, against a severe tohit penalty ofcourse. Who would stand around and look while arrows are flying their way, I'd fire a few back even if i' can't see where they come from (or run)

A high level spellcaster might even fire a supernova... or a predator sight!

[BasiliskWrangler]

Thanks BW - these changes will make a big difference!
How difficult would it be to allow entities to target you if you are invisible and they hear you as well? That would fully integrate silence into gameplay and sensibly restrain some of the power of invisibility as well. (You might not have to reduce invisibility duration as much or at all.)

For example, that would mean if I'm invisible and attack enemy 1, enemy 2 who is standing right next to me while I make a huge racket beating on enemy 1 will have a clue and attack me too. But if I'm completely silent while whacking enemy 1, enemy 2 will remain clueless and not attack me.

Is that workable?

I'm not sure I want to do this based on "realism". If you were alone in your home, and suddenly from behind you heard the sound of a sword being drawn from its sheath, but upon turning around there was no one there- would you know enough to make an accurate hit on this "invisible" person? Even if they were to strike you, would you know what direction the hit came from? Other than swinging wildly and hoping to score a hit, you really have no chance to accurate fight an invisible person.

As it is, if someone hears you or sees your light while you are invisible they will track you- they'll stay near you waiting for the invisibility to wear off (which it does more quickly in 1.04).

Now, Hiding in Shadows is different. If someone is hidden in shadows but makes a sound, and you look in that direction, you brain will be expecting a person to be there. Even if they are well hidden it is likely that you see them since your ears have already alerted you to their presence.

Is your suggestion possible? Probably. It might even balance the game out a bit. But I don't know if I want to do it.

[Farwalker]

I'm not sure I want to do this based on "realism". If you were alone in your home, and suddenly from behind you heard the sound of a sword being drawn from its sheath, but upon turning around there was no one there- would you know enough to make an accurate hit on this "invisible" person? Even if they were to strike you, would you know what direction the hit came from? Other than swinging wildly and hoping to score a hit, you really have no chance to accurate fight an invisible person.

As it is, if someone hears you or sees your light while you are invisible they will track you- they'll stay near you waiting for the invisibility to wear off (which it does more quickly in 1.04).

Now, Hiding in Shadows is different. If someone is hidden in shadows but makes a sound, and you look in that direction, you brain will be expecting a person to be there. Even if they are well hidden it is likely that you see them since your ears have already alerted you to their presence.

Is your suggestion possible? Probably. It might even balance the game out a bit. But I don't know if I want to do it.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I really like that they will track you if they hear you. I think in this case I was looking for consistency more than realism though (or at least as well as realism). At what point are they able to attack back? I'm comparing with the case where I silently shoot a bow or throw a dart at someone from a distance while invisible. They will track me down and proceed to attack me (of course with the usual severe penalties). Yet I can cast a noisy spell right next to someone (and even injure them with it) and they won't attack me. Likewise the noisy melee attack right next to an enemy example. Do you see what I mean?

My suggestions were one way to address this, and food for thought, but if they veer from what you are aiming for there should be other ways too.

My compliments, by the way, on your willingness to accept input from your players on things like this - and even talk a bit about what you choose to incorporate or not. That puts you light years above most other game developers in my opinion (and as a developer myself I understand the effort it involves).
*tip of the hat*