What I don't like about Book II(marginal spoilers)

[trinko]

First off even with all of my complaints I'm glad I bought Book II but that's because there's not much choice in Mac RPG games. But my real frustration is that the game could be so much better with just a little work. All of the recommendations I have could be implemented as options so folks who enjoy spending their lives criss crossing the maps could still do so.

1) It's boring
Getting between points takes forever. I'd estimate that 80-90% of my "playing" time is holding the mouse down--not good for my tendonitis--and either moving across a map I've already explored or wandering nearly hopelessly through forests where I can't see my character and I'm trying to find hidden paths. Quick travel is ok but for example once I quick travel to East Willow it still takes me a minute or more of my real time, a minute of my life I'll never get back, to walk my character to his house. I don't mind things being slow when I'm first clearing an area but once it's cleared I shouldn't have to take 5 minutes or more to cross an area to get to another one. Every region should have a quick travel option and there should a click on the map and your character walks to there mode, like in the Avernum game, so you can do something else while your character is moseying along. Portal is nice but way to expensive and it doesn't show up soon enough.
Recommendations: Have a running mode for areas that are cleared; Have quick travel for every area; Have a go to mode--ie autopilot; Fix the stupid forest graphics so you can see your character and there's a way--reveal map?--to quickly see paths if you want to--with a points penalty.

2) Cartography is strange
I'd think that the first thing you'd map would be roads and water not individual trees but that's not how it works. Also if you use the reveal map spell and then go back to that area without reveal map you lose the information you had. Apparently you're erasing and redrawing your maps where ever you go. right. Also the map is bad in forests because sometimes you can go through a green pixel and sometimes you can't. Also the lack of a map that shows the regions is a pain. Because it takes so long to traverse a region and some paths are hidden in forests it's hard to be sure if you've explored all of the areas.
Recommendations: Map obvious stuff first and provide a world map that shows the relationships between the areas, or overlay the areas on the Mistfal map.

3) Early game is boring for mages
This is a common problem for RPGs. My mage could kill one or two dragonflys and then I'd have to rest.

4) Day night is horrible
My monitor faces and open window. Until I figured out how to brighten the screen the game was unplayable during the game night so more "playing" time I spent staring at the screen while my character camped hoping to not be devoured in the night. Even now playing at night or in a dungeon is more of an eye test than enjoyment.
Recommendations: Have a mode that makes night brighter for those folks who don't skulk.

5) Weather
Is this game set in Oregon? It rains all the time. Not so bad except for in the early game where that essentially renders your fire spells useless. Once again too much time sitting around waiting for it to stop raining. Boring. As an occasional thing it's alright but not as often as it occurs.
Recommendations: Let the player set the amount of weather

6) Not being able to drop things and then recover them
I was on the 2nd level of the dwarf mine. I wanted to move a powder keg. In order to be able to carry it I had to temporarily drop some stuff. In order to do that I had to spend 5 minutes walking to a chest and back. Then when I was done with the powder keg I had to spend another 5 minutes of my life that I won't ever get back recovering the items from the chest. Aaaargh!
Recommendation: You've already got the code to create a bag when a monster is killed or when camping and foraging. Use that when characters remove stuff from their packs.

7) Not much content
Comparing the number of quest/areas to Avernum 6 Book II looks awfully small. Admittedly the graphics and sound are better but in Book II it feels to me that most of my "playing" time is spent wandering around not actually doing anything. But even the quests that occur are pretty sparse. For example after my encounter with Sparrow you'd think the guild would have something to say. But no. Also does it strike anyone else as odd that I get more help from the Giliam guy--the item he gives--than I do from the guild? Sure you can find some stuff in the guild hall--good touch how you locate that by the way--but they don't either train you or give you anything useful at least for your first quest for them. To be honest if I didn't have to waste so much time wandering around I wouldn't mind this. But there should be more little things to do while you spend hours walking around.

Well enough of venting my spleen. This game is both good and very frustrating. Hopefully Book III will be better.

[xolotl]

Some good points in there - I'd certainly agree about Cartography and being able to keep dropped items. In re: Cartography specificially, I take it you haven't noticed the additional bizarreness of what happens after your Reveal Map spell wears off? :)

Someone else mentioned the great tactic of making sure you've got at least one point of Forage ability, then simply making a quick camp and wake up again. You'll be left with a handy little bag on the ground - so long as you don't completely empty it, you'll have a place to store some items. Quite handy! Can do a bunch of quick sleep/wakeup cycles to create a little stash for yourself somewhere.

3) Early game is boring for mages
5) Weather

I'd have to disagree about these two. My first playthrough was as a mage, and it was partially due to the weather and its effect on Fire Dart that I felt so pressed to find a bigger city so I could get some more effective offensive spells, and it created a nice tension of knowing that I shouldn't necessarily barge into areas with enemies if the weather wasn't looking great. Also, experiences with weather seem to vary greatly depending on your random number seeds. Some folks will occasionally get lots of rain, and some may go for many days without a single drop. That's something that's mostly due to chance, I think.

(I'd also disagree in re: the complaints about walking time, content, and day/night issues, though I've got nothing but 'personal opinion' to say about those. :)

[Kreador Freeaxe]

About day and night, did you see the "Brightness Booster" option in the Game Options? With that, unless it's a heavy storm, you can usually see reasonably well at night. Also, as a mage, casting both Gravedigger's Flame and Cat's Eyes together makes darkness almost vanish.

Also, you don't need to hold the mouse button down to walk. Pressing W turns your cursor dark green, which is "auto-walk" mode. You keep going where the cursor is pointing until interrupted by finding a trap, clicking the mouse button, or pressing W again.

With the map, there is an Amireth map and an Eschalon map that you can find in the game, in addition to the Mistfell map, which can show you the various areas in relation to each other. I'm not going to argue cartography. I would also prefer that it just be there, or at least that the trainer not be 1/3rd of the way through the game. Given that at really high levels, though, cartography has the rather magical ability to show you creatures/NPCs in your area, even if you haven't mapped that section yet, I don't generally think of it as a physically drawn map that the character consults, but a "psychic" map in the mind.

I also would love more miscellaneous content all over Book II. I wish there were more multiple NPC quests where you were sent from person to person figuring things out and making decisions about who to believe. I would have liked to be able to confront Wendy with the bloody boots from her trash barrel and ask her if she put them there. Still, I've had about 200 hours of entertainment so far from Book II, so I'm not exactly feeling like I overpaid.

[Kendahke]

however, brightness booster does not boost it enough. I've tried doing that and it only boosts it 30% or so. The rest of it is negligable.

I'm not impressed with their maps, either. Would be nice if the maps (the ones of Mistfell and Amireth) would indicate where on that map your character currently is. Too much time is spent grinding to figure out where you are and where you need to go.

[xolotl]

however, brightness booster does not boost it enough. I've tried doing that and it only boosts it 30% or so. The rest of it is negligable.

Are you sure this isn't just a general monitor brightness issue? My old 21" CRT was, on average, much darker than most games would expect. In almost every game I played I had to pump the gamma up as high as possible to let the "dark" areas be playable. Once I moved to my current LCD, they've all been fine (including Book 2, where I find even the non-cat's-eyes nighttime to be playable on many levels). It's certainly dark still, of course - it's supposed to be nighttime after all. If you don't like wandering around in the dark, just camp overnight, yeah? :)

I'm not impressed with their maps, either. Would be nice if the maps would indicate where on that map your character currently is. Too much time is spent grinding to figure out where you are and where you need to go.

You mean on the "world" maps that you can store in your inventory? You could always just do what I did while playing my first runthrough, which was to draw out a simple map on a piece of paper as I played. This is supposed to be an oldschool kind of game, after all, and pencil-and-paper mapmaking used to be essential to many games in this genre.

[Kendahke]

My monitor is 18 months old. In fact, it's a HD monitor and the brightness boost still only lightens 30%.

Me lightening my monitor is not the issue: the issue is that the game's option to boost the brightness isn't powerful enough to even list it as an option. I do not expect it to light the surroundings like midday at midnight or in a dungeon, but I do expect to see some kind of an improvement beyond 30%.

You could always just do what I did while playing my first runthrough, which was to draw out a simple map on a piece of paper as I played.

this is a 2010 game. I should not have to break out a piece of paper to draw anything.

[xolotl]

Me lightening my monitor is not the issue: the issue is that the game's option to boost the brightness isn't powerful enough to even list it as an option.

Well, there's clearly some difference in perception here. As I say, even when not boosted, I find the game's nighttime lighting levels to be entirely appropriate. Perhaps Book III will include some phase-of-the-moon counter to increase the nighttime light periodically.

this is a 2010 game. I should not have to break out a piece of paper to draw anything.

Different strokes and all, I guess. My absolute-ideal-videogame remains Infocom interactive fiction, so clearly I'm of the pencil-and-paper-are-awesome mindset.

[Elwro]

Someone else mentioned the great tactic of making sure you've got at least one point of Forage ability, then simply making a quick camp and wake up again. You'll be left with a handy little bag on the ground - so long as you don't completely empty it, you'll have a place to store some items. Quite handy!

Oh boy.

Oh boy.

Oh boy.

Why didn't I think of that? I think I easily lost an hour just on going to my stash and coming back.

Thanks, I'll use this on my second playthrough.

[IJBall]

Someone else mentioned the great tactic of making sure you've got at least one point of Forage ability, then simply making a quick camp and wake up again. You'll be left with a handy little bag on the ground - so long as you don't completely empty it, you'll have a place to store some items. Quite handy!

Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy.

Why didn't I think of that? I think I easily lost an hour just on going to my stash and coming back.

Thanks, I'll use this on my second playthrough.

All that said, I have thought, going back to Book I, that there should be some way for your character to be able to "create" a loot sack upon command. (If some sort of "exploit" issue is BW's concern here, the number of "creatable" loot sacks could be limited to 5 or 3 (or something...) per playthrough...)

But I agree, that "creatable loot sacks" is one feature that's really missing from this series, going back to Book I.

[SpottedShroom]

Getting between points takes forever. I'd estimate that 80-90% of my "playing" time is holding the mouse down--not good for my tendonitis--and either moving across a map I've already explored or wandering nearly hopelessly through forests where I can't see my character and I'm trying to find hidden paths.

This is a good point, but I'm not sure that having more quick travel points is the ideal solution. Let's compare to Ultima 6, possibly the best tile and turn based RPG ever made. In Ultima 6, the orb of the moons offers easy access to certain locations, pretty much the same as quick travel in Eschalon. The rest of the time you have to hoof it, and there isn't even a walk lock feature!

And yet travel in Ultima 6 doesn't usually feel boring. I can think of a few reasons why that is:

1. Random encounters. Walking through explored area can be as dangerous or interesting as the first time. I'd put this on my Book III wish list.

2. Walking is faster. I don't know if BW puts any specific delay code in the game or if it's just hardware dependent, but it would be nice to be able to fast forward through travel a bit.

3. There's more stuff in the world. Travelling is more interesting when there's more scenery. This would probably be the hardest thing to replicate in Eschalon, though, simply because of limited developer time.

Comparing the number of quest/areas to Avernum 6 Book II looks awfully small.

I was going to say that people are spoiled by major label games with multi-million dollar budgets, but the comparison to Avernum is interesting. Do you know what kind of dev team Spiderweb uses that lets them put more content into their games? Their games are certainly less polished, but I would imagine that doesn't free up too much time to write content.

I'd love to be able to volunteer to help write content for Book III...

[CrazyBernie]

Getting between points takes forever. I'd estimate that 80-90% of my "playing" time is holding the mouse down--not good for my tendonitis

You do know there's an "auto-walk" key.... right?

4) Day night is horrible
My monitor faces and open window. Until I figured out how to brighten the screen the game was unplayable during the game night so more "playing" time I spent staring at the screen while my character camped hoping to not be devoured in the night. Even now playing at night or in a dungeon is more of an eye test than enjoyment.
Recommendations: Have a mode that makes night brighter for those folks who don't skulk.

You do know there's torches/spells for the dark... right?

My monitor is 18 months old. In fact, it's a HD monitor and the brightness boost still only lightens 30%.

Me lightening my monitor is not the issue: the issue is that the game's option to boost the brightness isn't powerful enough to even list it as an option. I do not expect it to light the surroundings like midday at midnight or in a dungeon, but I do expect to see some kind of an improvement beyond 30%.

Interesting... my 4-year old LCD shows a huge improvement with the brightness booster turned up all the way... I'm reminded of a screenshot that BW put out before release that showed the difference...



That's pretty much how it looks to me... I don't even need a torch. Of course, the age of the monitor doesn't really give away its brightness capabilities... you could buy a brand new monitor that advertises a 10,000:1 contrast ratio and 350nits brightness, and still get something that's in reality all dark and washed out.

[Elwro]

I was going to say that people are spoiled by major label games with multi-million dollar budgets, but the comparison to Avernum is interesting. Do you know what kind of dev team Spiderweb uses that lets them put more content into their games? Their games are certainly less polished, but I would imagine that doesn't free up too much time to write content.

By "polished" you mean, I assume, the visual and aural aspects? Then I agree, both Eschalons have pretty music, nice sound effects (except for a few pig-like sounds during combat) and look quite well. But in terms of content Spiderweb games are a lot more fleshed out...

[tungprc]

Spiderweb uses Jeff Vogel and that's about it. There are a few other folks that help out a little bit, but it's basically a one man effort on the programming side. Most of Jeff's games have no music and little sound effects so there's some time savings right there. The big difference is that Jeff has been doing this for 20 years and he's learned to speed things up. His graphics are horribly outdated and makes Eschalon's look like Oblivion's

My opinionated comparison follows:

That said, Jeff is a pretty good writer and he absolutely fills his games up with content. Mind you, most of that content is a rehash of earlier content, but his worlds aren't empty. Give Tom another few games under his belt and I think you'll see his stuff surpass Jeff's in a number of ways. Tom is a better programmer, Jeff is a better writer. I think Jeff's games will always have a better storyline than Eschalon, but he's very limited in his actual programming skills. Tom has the programming and should be able to grow to a higher level than Jeff.

Both guys are my heroes, though I stopped playing Jeff's games a while back. I just can't handle those outdated graphics any longer. Jeff needs to take a game or two off and go back to programming school. Unfortunately, he's not independently wealthy, so he can't afford to do that.

[trinko]

4) Day night is horrible
My monitor faces and open window. Until I figured out how to brighten the screen the game was unplayable during the game night so more "playing" time I spent staring at the screen while my character camped hoping to not be devoured in the night. Even now playing at night or in a dungeon is more of an eye test than enjoyment.
Recommendations: Have a mode that makes night brighter for those folks who don't skulk.

You do know there's torches/spells for the dark... right?

Neither make it bright enough to see all the details, cracks in walls etc, unless you're really close.

[trinko]

Misc responses:

Thanks for the tip about foraging. That should have been obvious. However it may be a problem in some areas where you have to rest awhile, hence inviting attacks, in order for the forage bag to show up. Also won't work in cities.

Actually if you check out Avernum 6's graphics you'll see that they're not too bad. The new game also looks to have better graphics. Graphics aren't really related to programming skill so much as the quality of the artist you hire. To be honest I really hate the forests in Book II because it takes forever to find if there's anything there and there usually isn't. So while they're prettier than those in Avernum they're a negative from the user perspective.

I have the "world" maps you find in the game. What's hard to do is figure out where you are and how to get to where you want to go. Too many bridges are out. Too many rivers can't be crossed. As to paper and pencil well I once went to Gary Gygax's house in Lake Geneva to discuss problems with the D&D rules, version 1, so I guess I can lay claim to being old school but I'd really rather not spend my time making a map.