Feedback

[thomasareed]

I've played Book I and Book II now, several times for Book I and twice for Book II. Overall, I enjoyed both, especially the storyline, which was well-developed and kept my interest. Quests were good... with the exception of the "walk down the street with this message" quest, there weren't any that really didn't make much sense as a quest, as I've seen in some games. Fortunately, the major lag I was seeing with Book I on my old computer is no longer an issue on my shiny new Intel Mac, but unfortunately I'm finding that a lot of the things that really bugged me about the previous book are still present in the new one.

Before I present all these gripes, let me say that I'm not trying to be negative, I'm posting them in hopes that the developer might think about fixing some of them.

First, movement is a major pain. I was constantly wishing for a way to run, so I could travel quickly through previously-explored territory. I eventually ended up cheating myself some magic skills and attributes just so I could use the portal spell... movement bugged me that much! In addition to the slow speed, I don't particularly enjoy exploring dense forest where I can't see anything and can only navigate with the automap, and that with difficulty. I can appreciate having some hidden things here and there, but would prefer not to wade through entire regions of this kind of nonsense! At the opposite end of the spectrum, "painting stripes" on the automap in the big empty regions is no fun at all. I realize that it's more realistic if there's not something interesting around every corner, but nobody here is playing fantasy games because they want reality! This really needs some improvement.

Second, the dearth of skill and attribute points still really bugs me! There are so many skills that it becomes very difficult for a character to get by on only three points per level. Especially when I start having to put points into Cartography just in order to have a basic game feature become useable, and points into Repair to keep my weapons from breaking, and points into Foraging to keep from dying of hunger and thirst as easily, etc, etc. Like I said before, when reviewing Book I, this dearth of points would be acceptable if building characters in a party, where each character can be an extreme specialist... but when the character needs to have a little of everything in order to be a competent adventurer, 3 points just isn't enough!

My other gripes are fairly class-specific. First time I played through Book II, I played as a ranger. The first two things that anyone trying to play as a ranger will notice are 1) arrows are too darn heavy, and 2) there aren't enough of them! I know, I can wait 8 days for the smiths to get more arrows, but even then I'm only getting maybe a couple dozen arrows at a time and they're all gone in a flash, and yet I'm oddly glad when they're gone because then I can actually carry some loot. This is supposed to be fun?! My ranger ended up making less than 10% of his kills with his bow by the end of the game. I don't mind a ranger needing to get into some sword work, as that's my view of the ranger: like Aragorn, good with a bow and good with a sword. But this is too much.

Second time, I played as a rogue, and that's when I really started getting annoyed. In Book I, my rogue was able to sneak up on things and attack them from hiding. In Book II, even after I cheated Hide in Shadows up past 20 (and Move Silently was in the mid-teens), I almost never managed to sneak up on anything. As soon as I got next to an enemy, it would whack me. Next, I was intrigued by the rogue's initial focus in piercing weapons, and assumed there must be some cool new rogue weapons (which were pretty much absent from Book I, IIRC). In the early game, I enjoyed finding better and better daggers and stilettos, but soon I realized that my iron stiletto with a base damage of 4 was going to be as good as it was going to get. I never found anything better. All the decent piercing weapons are spears. Seriously? Spears? A rogue doesn't use a spear! I ultimately ended up giving the poor guy one of the named spears and pretended it wasn't a spear. Why isn't there a good higher-damage stiletto with some extra poison damage at a minimum? Or a skill to seriously multiply the damage of a weak weapon, like backstabbing or increased critical hits? Also, I really felt the pain of the low skill point limits with the rogue, who needed to put points into weapons, moving silently, hiding in shadows, picking locks, skullduggery, spot hidden and the other usual skills. And a rogue who can hide in the dark really isn't any good if he can't see in the dark, but since there's no skill or racial attribute for that, I had to put points in for magic to get Cat's Eye - either that or see my entire income go out in Cat's Eye potions. Oh, and don't get me started about thrown weapons, which ought to be a rogue's province... I'm not sure what use those are to a rogue, who is not usually highly-focused in strength, since they're all heavier than arrows (some a lot heavier than arrows), making them hard to carry in any useful quantity.

Overall, I enjoyed the storyline and enjoyed the gameplay (once I had cheated my way around some of the annoyances). But I don't like having to cheat to enjoy a game, and because many of these gripes aren't significantly different from gripes I had with the first Book, I will think very seriously before purchasing Book III when it's available. I'm hoping some of these issues will be addressed by then.

[IJBall]

Second, the dearth of skill and attribute points still really bugs me! There are so many skills that it becomes very difficult for a character to get by on only three points per level. Especially when I start having to put points into Cartography just in order to have a basic game feature become useable, and points into Repair to keep my weapons from breaking, and points into Foraging to keep from dying of hunger and thirst as easily, etc, etc.

I don't feel there's a dearth in Attribute points in either Book.

But probably my personal biggest gripe re: Book II vs. Book I is the cutting down the starting number of Skill points from 20 to 15 - that alone costs you at least one (and possibly as many as 3!!) starting character Skills, and as a larger variety of Skills is a greater necessity in Book II as compared to Book I, this really hurts IMHO.

Now, Book II makes up for it somewhat with more Skill trainers - even if you don't start with Foraging, you don't have to go that far to find the Skill trainer for it. And I didn't start my Mage off with Repair, so I just did a quick early detour to Raven's Gate/Durnore to buy it. Even for Cartography, you only have to hoof it to Port K.

Still - my preference for Book III would be to go back to at 20 starting Skill points (or, failing that, at least 18 starting Skill points...), as I do feel like this is a valid gripe about Book II... So I (partially) agree with you on this one.

My other gripes are fairly class-specific. First time I played through Book II, I played as a ranger. The first two things that anyone trying to play as a ranger will notice are 1) arrows are too darn heavy, and 2) there aren't enough of them! I know, I can wait 8 days for the smiths to get more arrows, but even then I'm only getting maybe a couple dozen arrows at a time and they're all gone in a flash, and yet I'm oddly glad when they're gone because then I can actually carry some loot. This is supposed to be fun?! My ranger ended up making less than 10% of his kills with his bow by the end of the game. I don't mind a ranger needing to get into some sword work, as that's my view of the ranger: like Aragorn, good with a bow and good with a sword. But this is too much.

This, to me, sounds like it was more of a character-build issue on your side.

Rangers can be heck of easy as long as you pour points into DEX/CON and the Bows skill. Rangers are a little challenging early on (esp. re: Arrows), but should be a relative breeze by mid-game once the Focus 'Feat' really stars to kick in...

Second time, I played as a rogue, and that's when I really started getting annoyed. In Book I, my rogue was able to sneak up on things and attack them from hiding. In Book II, even after I cheated Hide in Shadows up past 20 (and Move Silently was in the mid-teens), I almost never managed to sneak up on anything. As soon as I got next to an enemy, it would whack me. Next, I was intrigued by the rogue's initial focus in piercing weapons, and assumed there must be some cool new rogue weapons (which were pretty much absent from Book I, IIRC). In the early game, I enjoyed finding better and better daggers and stilettos, but soon I realized that my iron stiletto with a base damage of 4 was going to be as good as it was going to get. I never found anything better...

I agree with some of your points about Rogues. (A number of people feel that Rogues are the toughest builds to pull off in Eschalon...)

Anyways, it's not just daggers - there's also a dearth of high Damage staffs as well. Some of us have put in suggestions for some of these for v1.05 of Book II.

As for the Hide is Shadows thing, it could be a bug: are you sure you are playing with v1.04, and not v1.03 (or before)? - there was an issue with Hide in Shadows before v1.04. (And, in fact, there still is a Hide in Shadows bug even in v1.04, as it's possible to lose Hidden status in some situations and never get it back!)

Anyway, some of your issues with Rogue may be lingering bugs...

[mph66]

I've played Eschalon II through several times now. 2 Rangers, 2 Rogues, 2 fighters, and now, I'm about to enter Talushorn with a Magic User. I don't have a lot of gripes, per se, but some user interface ideas that would go a long way to smoothing out game play:

1) "Talk" dialogues (especially in shops) need to be uniform. A user should be able to "escape" up one menu level and back out if need be, rather than actually having to mouse over to the "exit" button. If you're playing on a notebook you feel my pain.

2) I'd like to be able to move things around in my inventory even when I'm in a shop. If I buy another ectoplasm, the shop throws it in somewhere at random and does not add it to my stack. OK, no problem, but let me move things around, please.

3) Why is it that I can get the beans kicked out of me if I'm in a melee and I'm switching weapons, or a piece of equipment, ring, etc, but I can brew up potions and move them around in my inventory to my heart's content without anyone taking a swing at me?

All in all, this is a great game. I disagree with the whole skill points thing- there are plenty of skill points. I think there are, however, too many skills. Some should be merged. For instance, if I can train in the "thieving arts" of dodge, lockpicking and hide in shadows, then why aren't they combined? It would open up skill points to develop other things. Rogues are very hard to advance because you get that Divination skill point up front, but you have so many other skills to add if you're going to do a decent build- dodge, lockpicking, hide in shadows, skullduggery, piercing weapons, swords, light armor, shields, alchemy, foraging, bows/thrown weapons...it's nuts. There should be a swords/daggers/axes skill combined, perhaps, just as mauls/maces/staves are combined.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

Cheers,

mph66

[thomasareed]

if you don't start with Foraging, you don't have to go that far to find the Skill trainer for it. And I didn't start my Mage off with Repair, so I just did a quick early detour to Raven's Gate/Durnore to buy it. Even for Cartography, you only have to hoof it to Port K.

Sure, but consider the first-time player... they don't know exactly where to go. It was quite a while before I finally found my way into Port K the first time around. Further, doesn't it kind of destroy the continuity of the game to just trot (well, plod) all the way over to Durnore to level up a skill when your character isn't even supposed to have any remote reason for going to Durnore yet?

Rangers can be heck of easy as long as you pour points into DEX/CON and the Bows skill. Rangers are a little challenging early on (esp. re: Arrows), but should be a relative breeze by mid-game once the Focus 'Feat' really stars to kick in...

Yes, the bow feat is extremely useful, but even with that on a highly-cheat-enhanced ranger, I was spending an average of something like 5 arrows per enemy even mid- to late-game, mostly because of the intense penalties for "long-range shots." There are something like 8 Taurax at the door to the tower at the end, and that's 40 arrows... and a lot of running around! To get through the tower itself probably would have cost me a couple hundred arrows, which would have left me encumbered if I could have found that many.

Anyways, it's not just daggers - there's also a dearth of high Damage staffs as well.

Yeah, seems like the decent weapons are only available for the brutes... just swords, axes and a few hammers and spears. For your mage, you could be like Gandalf... he had a magic sword and wasn't a stranger to using it when necessary.

As for the Hide is Shadows thing, it could be a bug: are you sure you are playing with v1.04, and not v1.03 (or before)?

I'm using 1.04.

[Ed Cakes]

I just popped out of Westwillow with my Nefarious piercing Rogue, and he has his deadly, mean-nasty, sticky-pokey...

...spear.



I love my spear-wielding Rogue!!!