possible balance issue with buying skillpoints?

vid · Post by **vid** » November 21st, 2007, 7:05 am

later in the game you find trainers who will train your skills.
so far so cool, but i think that for a skill which my char does not have yet i would have to invest all 3 skillpoints on level up. pretty much if you ask me. but, when finding a trainer i can get the same skill for a mere 100 gp.

i think the training of skills which the player does not have yet should be way more expensive.
then, for a raise for one skill point for known skills use your current system. (100, 200, etc. gp)

what do you think?

LethalBlade · Post by **LethalBlade** » November 21st, 2007, 12:28 pm

While I haven't encountered any trainers yet, I agree. It should definitely cost more to train a skill you don't yet have. Say, like, 500gp.

Melvil · Post by **Melvil** » November 21st, 2007, 12:49 pm

training skills becomes very expensive after skill level 3, and money isn't just growing on trees in this game. if you wanted to spend 2k + training up a melee skill that's your call, but honestly, i'd focus your skills a bit more. For instance, I've bought a few skill levels in throwing for Demon Oil, and one skill point in cleaving weapons (found a +3 steel axe) just so my mage can finish off low energy foes, but to get those up to level 10 or so, would take more money than my spell budget can allow. anyway, my penny on this topic.

Maybe towards the end of the game you're rich, but so far i'm having to be pretty frugal with my expenses.

vid · Post by **vid** » November 21st, 2007, 1:07 pm

the costs for higher skill levels could be lowered a bit in exchange for the pricey first level.

Josia · Post by **Josia** » November 21st, 2007, 5:33 pm

Melvil wrote:training skills becomes very expensive after skill level 3, and money isn't just growing on trees in this game. if you wanted to spend 2k + training up a melee skill that's your call, but honestly, i'd focus your skills a bit more. For instance, I've bought a few skill levels in throwing for Demon Oil, and one skill point in cleaving weapons (found a +3 steel axe) just so my mage can finish off low energy foes, but to get those up to level 10 or so, would take more money than my spell budget can allow. anyway, my penny on this topic.

Maybe towards the end of the game you're rich, but so far i'm having to be pretty frugal with my expenses.

There's a cap on how high you can go with the trainers. It's been 5 for every skill I've found a trainer for so far; I would imagine that's true across the board. Thus at most you could spend 1500 gold on any one skill to get it from 0 -> 5.

Anyway, I'm not really sure this is a bug. It's simply another option for improving and tweaking skills. Also, to train the skill, you need to find the trainer; for basic skills, you may simply not be able to wait until you reach the appropriate trainer. There's also the impact of skill books to consider, and how lucky one is in finding them.

There's definitely an optimization curve out there to be calculated, though, especially if you know the locations of all the trainers and the drop rates for the books.

vid · Post by **vid** » November 21st, 2007, 7:32 pm

Josia wrote: Anyway, I'm not really sure this is a bug.

i never said that this is a bug. i just wanted to discuss this matter, because i found it strange that you can purchase something so valuable (3 skillpoints) for so little money (100gp)

but you are propably right with your points...

Claw · Post by **Claw** » November 22nd, 2007, 3:16 pm

vid wrote:i never said that this is a bug. i just wanted to discuss this matter, because i found it strange that you can purchase something so valuable (3 skillpoints) for so little money (100gp)

but you are propably right with your points...

Well, I find it somewhat irritating myself, and I don't feel Josia's points address the real issue, which you just stated. I don't mind having an alternative option to improve my character, but once I find a trainer who can give me a skill for cheap, those 3 skillpoints I invested to get the skill feel wasted.

It probably doesn't belong in the support forum tho..

Myll · Post by **Myll** » November 22nd, 2007, 3:26 pm

Claw wrote:Well, I find it somewhat irritating myself, and I don't feel Josia's points address the real issue, which you just stated. I don't mind having an alternative option to improve my character, but once I find a trainer who can give me a skill for cheap, those 3 skillpoints I invested to get the skill feel wasted.

Yea, I feel the same.

I think the best solution would be to increase the price on the first level if you learn it from a trainer. I.e. between 500-1000. After all you are paying in total 900 for the next three levels. Meaning that if someone gets the first level of the skills from a trainer they can potentionally save a lot of skill points used on aquireing those skills when you level up.

Josia · Post by **Josia** » November 22nd, 2007, 9:27 pm

vid wrote:i never said that this is a bug.

Sorry, I was confused by it being in the support forum. I thought you were identifying it as a bug / exploit.

vid wrote:i just wanted to discuss this matter, because i found it strange that you can purchase something so valuable (3 skillpoints) for so little money (100gp)

Claw wrote:Well, I find it somewhat irritating myself, and I don't feel Josia's points address the real issue, which you just stated. I don't mind having an alternative option to improve my character, but once I find a trainer who can give me a skill for cheap, those 3 skillpoints I invested to get the skill feel wasted.

Myll wrote:Yea, I feel the same.

Don't get me wrong, I also felt a little annoyed when I first learned of trainers. However, as I've learned more about the game I've come to see the various ways of increasing skills more as options with pros and cons to each ~ simply pieces of the puzzle.

As best I can tell there are at least 4 different ways to increase skills: Skill points, Trainers, Books, and Items. The last one is temporary, of course, but still factors in ~ someone who has a Brewmaster's Ring may not need to spend as many points in Alchemy, for example.

Now instead of being annoyed, as I was at first, I think of it as an opportunity to tune future character's a little bit better. Thinking back to the 'old-school' RPGs that this game echoes, one is never able to fully micro-manage skills in an optimized way the first time through. Learning those quirks was part of the game: you either grabbed a strategy guide (I'm sure there will be some popping up for Eschalon soon), played through knowing that your character / party wasn't quite as optimized as (s)he/it could have been, or if you just couldn't stand it restarted armed with the edge gained from having learned the system a little better.

To borrow from the FAQ: "It is assumed that the casual gamer today doesn't want to micromanage their character, and perhaps they donâ€™t, but back in the day you had to if you wanted to be successful. That was playing a RPG."

I see the differences and pros and cons of Skill Points, Trainers, and Books as playing to that ideal. It's not about power-gaming such that you have the most perfect character (at least not the first time through), it's more about story and the joy (and yes, challenge) of the game itself.

Hopefully that makes a little more sense as to where I was coming from. Again apologies for misinterpreting the original post. As has been already mentioned this discussion probably doesn't belong in this forum.

Edit Post-Scriptum: As a last thought, from an RP standpoint it makes sense that it would be easier to learn a skill by being taught rather than attempting to learn it on your own without any teacher as well.

GSV3MiaC · Post by **GSV3MiaC** » November 23rd, 2007, 5:31 am

It doesn't upset me at all - that's life .. you buy a car for $25k, and then round the corner you find a nearly new one on offer for $15K. When you invest your 3 skill points in a new skill you get to pick from the whole range - if you want to learn it for 100GP you have to find the right trainer, which is far from easy.

The trainers I have found so far are for things which people 'ought to have' (cartography, mapping, alchemy) to access the 'full value of the game' (I mean you could maybe complete the game with zero cartography, but you'd be missing a lot of what the developers put in).

Azael · Post by **Azael** » November 23rd, 2007, 6:02 am

Considering that with a few points in mercantile you can get some new skills even cheaper through buying book (or even find them for free in a barrel somewhere), I don't see the problem here.

Claw · Post by **Claw** » November 23rd, 2007, 8:44 am

Azael wrote:Considering that with a few points in mercantile you can get some new skills even cheaper through buying book (or even find them for free in a barrel somewhere), I don't see the problem here.

That is like the opposite of logic.

JOG · Post by **JOG** » November 24th, 2007, 3:55 am

I think it's okay as it is, when you learn a new skill on your own, you have to invest more time (skillpoints) than you would have when an experienced trainer shows you some tricks.

Same for the books, when the topic is completely new for you, you save a lot of time researching the stuff on your own (equivalent of 3 skillpoints) but still may miss a lot of info because your lack of experience (skill=0: +1 / skill>0: +2)

Of course it's annoying to spend skillpoints you'd later get for free, but that's the point: later If you don't want to learn any skills because you feel the 3 points to buy them wasted, then good luck in searching the books and trainers.