Axioms - Why they are great, and what more we want

[Oshkell]

While I like the personality that axioms seem to give your character (at least that's how I imagine it) I can't help but feel as though some are far better than others, in just about every way.

For instance, it is my observation that "Virtuous" characters only get their little lvl 1 Bless spell... which, while that's cute and handy and all, is a feature that I think can be replaced by marching to a trainer and paying 100 gold for Skill 1 in Divination, plus the price of the scroll. (Unless you found it... and I've found a few Bless scrolls in the first few hours of gameplay)

And the downside of the Virtuous? Curses... I read in another thread some poor fellow's plight, which involved him being a Virtuous melee fighter up against I think it was a poltergeist. Yeah.... bad news.

Now there's the Nefarious character, who has that small chance to do bonus damage, (which I seem to notice happening on my evil dudes quite a bit!) and their only downside is that NPC clerics cannot heal them. In all my time spent with Book I and Book II, I have *never* gone to a temple for healing, and only ever *once* (in Book I) seen a priest for de-cursing. Since you can cast (with proper training) all the same spells that NPC clerics can, this really seems like an irrelevant disadvantage to me.

I think Atheists are a much more nearly balanced, since they can't get cursed, or be healed by NPC clerics. Plus, it makes a whole lot of sense to me. Kudos to Basilisk for making this the way it is.

I can see how Druidic characters could be neat, but more often than not, I find myself making camp in dungeons. If my HP/MP regen is slowed when I need it the most... it makes me think the con far outweighs the druids pro. I would only ever choose this if I wanted the game to be noticeably harder for me/my playing style.

While I personally prefer the concept of the Virtuous, I cannot reconcile their depreciating usefulness as compared to the Nefarious or Atheistic axioms.

What do you guys think? I'd love to hear some clever uses for the various axioms that I might not have thought of before. And perhaps more importantly, can you think of any axioms to suggest for Book III?

[SpottedShroom]

There are certainly balance issues that make some axioms "better" than others. Some of the benefits are weak and/or short-term, while the drawbacks are almost all long-term.

I find it interesting how your choice of axiom impacts your starting skill. I'm playing a melee fighter now and got stuck with Atheistic since I wanted swords. I ruled out Virtuous since I wanted to avoid spell casting altogether. It seems like general consensus is that Bludgeoning is the best melee weapon, but hey, swords are cool :)

[KillingMoon]

Now there's the Nefarious character, who has that small chance to do bonus damage, (which I seem to notice happening on my evil dudes quite a bit!)

Are you sure it wasn't Critical Damage? This does indeed happen quite a bit, but for Nefarious damage you only have a 5% chance.

I can see how Druidic characters could be neat, but more often than not, I find myself making camp in dungeons. If my HP/MP regen is slowed when I need it the most... it makes me think the con far outweighs the druids pro.

I don't know what the general opinion here about Druidic is, but I find it quite strong. Always make sure you're entering underground areas with full HP/MP, and if you're running low, just get out of there; don't rest underground! Then you'll only have problems in very deep underground places without exits.

Sorry, I haven't thought a lot about ideas for Axioms. I'm interested to see what suggestions are being made, though!

[Oshkell]

Yes, I'm sure it was Nefarious damage. At least, the battle text told me it was. It could be lying. Maybe it's upset at me because I save my game a lot. I know it's only a 5% chance, so I must be lucky or something. Even so, that's like rolling a natural 20 on a 20-sided die.

Critical damage is still better (x2 as opposed to Nefarious' +50%) but, given the chance that you get one shot at each per swing... AND considering the fact that a Nefarious Critical is pretty... well, nefarious, it makes it a really good choice for any physical-damage-inflicting character. (I once got a Nefarious hit on an Extreme Focus shot, and was using Power Attack Mode. 113 damage, using a maple longbow and a normal arrow. Ow. I've never seen a Nefarious *Critical* on an Extreme Focus shot... but I imagine the damage would just be stupid crazy.)

Changing the subject of this reply slightly, I just had a thought concerning Virtuous characters. It doesn't make sense that one concerned with the concept of virtue should be running amok committing crimes, right? What if you were simply prohibited from engaging in any action that would be deemed criminal if it was witnessed? I'd *also* like to think that Virtuous characters' diety would at least try to protect them against curses... maybe curses should be easier for Virtuous characters to remove, somehow. Whether it be every time they cast a spell, they channel the divine power of their diety, which has a tiny chance to cleanse them of negative effects, or when you rest, you pray, and little miracles happen, or whatever. I just really don't like the way the Virtuous axiom is being implemented at the moment. I think the ability to cast a minor spell should be assigned to some kind of Shamaanic axiom or something. Hmm... maybe that's something to explore later.

[IJBall]

For instance, it is my observation that "Virtuous" characters only get their little lvl 1 Bless spell... which, while that's cute and handy and all, is a feature that I think can be replaced by marching to a trainer and paying 100 gold for Skill 1 in Divination, plus the price of the scroll. (Unless you found it... and I've found a few Bless scrolls in the first few hours of gameplay)

I feel that you underrate the usefulness of Virtuous, at least early in the game.

In both Book I & II, you need to get fairly far into the game before you can pay gold for the Divination skill, so Virtuous at least gives non-magic users access to a good magic spell right off the bat.

And that Level 1 in Virtuous can sometimes be the difference between >50% ToHit scores and <50% ToHit scores early on, and sometimes be the difference between one-hit killing low-level mobs and not.

Now, that said, you're right - Virtuous gets pretty underpowered pretty quickly in the game. So it might be cool if Virtuous characters could somehow build-up to casting Bless at higher levels later on in the game without even getting the Divination skill. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this proposal would work, but it would go some way towards assuaging your issues with the Virtuous Axiom...

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Now, that said, you're right - Virtuous gets pretty underpowered pretty quickly in the game. So it might be cool if Virtuous characters could somehow build-up to casting Bless at higher levels later on in the game without even getting the Divination skill. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this proposal would work, but it would go some way towards assuaging your issues with the Virtuous Axiom...

Perhaps if the Virtuous character could automatically cast Bless at 1+(Level/5)? That would be cool. For virtuous fighters, I think of this as a Paladin calling on his/her deity for support, more than as a spell, anyway.

The sensitivity to curses is only a problem in two or three places, and careful use of ranged attacks can deal with those problems.

[IJBall]

Now, that said, you're right - Virtuous gets pretty underpowered pretty quickly in the game. So it might be cool if Virtuous characters could somehow build-up to casting Bless at higher levels later on in the game without even getting the Divination skill. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this proposal would work, but it would go some way towards assuaging your issues with the Virtuous Axiom...

Perhaps if the Virtuous character could automatically cast Bless at 1+(Level/5)? That would be cool. For virtuous fighters, I think of this as a Paladin calling on his/her deity for support, more than as a spell, anyway.

I think I like this idea generally, but I think one additional Level in casting Bless for every 5 character Levels is too high - something like one additional Level in casting Bless for every 3 (or possibly 4) character Levels seems more reasonable to me.

But, anyway, I like your idea on balance.

[Antigrav]

Taking a completely different angle, how about if Virtuous characters received a better "reaction" type of score, sort of like charisma in other systems? Merchants and other dealers who appreciated the character's outstanding reputation of honor and justice might offer a small discount. It would sort of offset the fact that such a character is probably not reaping the rewards of wanton thievery.

[Axiom]

Yeah....


I'll agree, I am pretty great

[rickchristie]

Bump.

I agree with lots of what been said in this thread. Virtuous is way too unbalanced.

BW. If you're reading this, for Virtuous characters, upside:

- Clerics heals you with lower price.
- Some (not all) merchants gives you lower price.
- Can cast bless lv. 1 without divination, the level of bless increases every 5 levels gained.

Downside:
- Can't steal, every time a virtuous character tries to open something that belongs to an NPC, write a message like: 'You wish to open this chest, but a sense of uneasiness fills you. You realize that this chest belongs to someone else, and decide against being a petty thief.'
- Cursed every time he/she kills someone friendly aligned. Curses gotten this way can only be healed by a cleric, for a hefty donation price.
- Can't lie.

More chance to get curses is absurd disadvantage for a Palladin. Like some has pointed out, wouldn't the deity that grants blessings to him/her provides more protection for curses on, say, nefarious characters?

The can't steal thing should also work in dungeons like the dwarf mine, seeing as the vault belongs to Lord such and such. This is a huge disadvantage, and will clearly affects your playing style. Should be a real challenge!

Anyways, make it more balanced!

[claudius]

You could hose wisdom with a virtuous character? I am new so what do I know hehe..