Thinking about starting with Eschalon - Few Questions

[Kordanor]

Heya,

I am currently waiting for Skyrim and was looking for a good game to bridge the time until that. Well, I found Eschalon now and got a few questions about Book1 and 2 (and their distinction).

How heavy is the story on these games? Is it more of a supporter of the game like in Diablo or is the story something which actually "leads" the game (Avadon, Dragon Age and Co). How distinctive is the story of Book 1 or 2? Is it completely a different one or is it more or less the same?

In the updated Versions of the Games: Is the resolution of Book1 still lower than in Book2?

Is there any reason why someone should not buy the steam version of the game for the PC? (I normally love steam but it has it's problems with some games).

Considering the Skyrim Release is in about 3 Weeks - What is the total playtime of the different books? If I can only finish one of them (and the other maybe later) would you suggest to play Eschalon 2 for now and maybe do the other one later? Or should I in every case start with Eschalon Book 1 to not be "spoiled" too much by new game features or by the story?

Thanks for your answers!

Kordanor

[Vroqren]

I can't answer all of your questions as I don't use Steam, etc, but trust me - this is worth buying. The plots in 1 and 2 are very different from each other, but Basilisk Wrangler put them together perfectly. They are excellently designed.

[blatherbeard]

I use steam for nearly all my purchases lately. I bought both avadon and Books 1 and 2 through steam and have had no issues at all. Ive played through book 1 and mostly through book 2.

Game is story driven and by far one of the better game stories ive played in about a decade.

[KillingMoon]

What you should know is that Eschalon is a trilogy. There's Book I, Book II, and Book III is being worked on.
Don't expect everything to come to an end in Book II, because that will only happen in Book III, so the story released as yet is very open ended.

The trilogy form doesn't mean you should start with Book I. Maybe Book II is even better to start with, as the walking pace of your character is a bit quicker in Book II. That sounds like a trivial thing, but many players have complained about the sluggish walking pace of the main character.

The resolution of the games has never changed, yeah, Book II has a different resolution from Book I, but that meant all the graphics had to be re-rendered. It wouldn't have been worth the developer's time to re-do Book I.
Basilisk Games is small, it's one person with a bit of help. The more this person wastes time on re-renedering graphics, interface changes, porting the game to different formats and such, the less games we will see. And it's more games we want!

Playtime for Book I and II is kinda similar, I believe. I haven't played Book I, but for Book II something like 60 hours is normal, I believe. It can be done within 40 hours, but also a lot of players spend well over a 100 hours.
A Book in Eschalon is smaller than Dragon Age Origins, that's for sure.

[Kordanor]

Thanks for your answers. I bought Eschalon 2 now and I am looking forward to explore the world and mechanics. 40-100h are fair enough.

One thing I want to mention here though:
Increasing the screen resolution is neither hard nor any re-rendering is needed.
Well, it is, if you want to make things look more detailed. But it's not if you just make them look smaller, which is fairly easy done in an ISO-perspective game. Example of where this was done? JA2 (800*600)->JA2 Wildfire (1024*768)
Of course there might be issues depending on the calculation of stuff "not on the screen", but that is hard to say and not "directly" related to the graphics.

[Kordanor]

Just finished the game (steam 47h, game time 36,3h), level 23, Score: 210274

I want to write a little bit about my opinion of the game, but I will keep it very short (and that's the reason why it might seem a little unstructured and you might miss some explanations):

In retrospective I need to say that Eschalon: Book 2 did not really live up to the expectations it set in the very first hours. It's still a good game, the music is pretty good and the graphics aren't bad as well. Content wise this game has some issues though: A lot of the difficulty settings become pretty pointless after the first hours. Considering at some point you can just summon food, there is no point in having bars for being hungry or thirsty. Degrading items only have an impact as long as you are low on money or don't have an repair skill, also basically only the very first hours. The balancing of the game combined with the skill system doesn't really give much room of experimenting. I guess you are screwed if you make a jack of all trades character. Besides some of the skills can just be bought for money, others can't. Some are extremely powerful, others are almost worthless. Stats however aren't retroactive, meaning you are gimped if you don't raise Constitution at first, which could then again very painful in the later part of the game.
The story isn't horrible, but not very good either. Some of the NPCs explanations don't make too much sense and the logic in the game isn't too convincing (Avadon absolutely scores here). In addition there are hardly any npcs at all. They are either directly for a quest or merchants, or NPCs you can't talk to at all. This doesn't really make the world feel believable or alive. While the exploration in the world is nice at the very beginning it becomes an dumb uncovering procedure very fast as soon as you get the cartography skill, when you basically start to navigate more on the map than on the playing screen. Lots of the zones aren't really that interesting either.
As I said. Still a good game. But as Avadon unnecessarily wasted potential by not having proper music and bad designed ending (last 20 percent of the game), Eschalon wasted potential by not filling the world porperly and using an immature skill system and game mechanics.

Was it worth the 20 Euros? Yes. But while I would have recommended the game in the very beginning, I wouldn't do that anymore for this price.

[ManusDei]

Many of us like the skill system for what it is. Very old fashioned Like the story.

Remember the game is mostly made by one person, so I guess there are limits to what can be done.

[KillingMoon]

I think Kordanor's criticism is pretty much on the spot. Time served fans of the game are saying the same kind of thing, except we mind less.

The food and drink requirement and item degradation don't make the game really more difficult for good players, it can be a different story for not so good players.
Good players who would have liked a challenge here will indeed not find what they're looking for.
Hardcore fans also don't like the 'Create Food' spell, it kills the system. That spell shouldn't be in in my opinion, or its effect should be severy limited.

Some skills are indeed much stronger than others, and yes, I agree that the points put in Constitution are making too much of a difference to the amount of hitpoints you're gettting. That formula could be looked at.
Some forum members say that it doesn't matter that one skill is better than another because it's a single player game, but I don't find that a great point. Yeah, the occasional weak skill will not kill the game, but it's still better if more routes are viable.

When it comes to non player characters and the writing you'll find that a lot of forum members are saying the same thing. Again, it'll somewhat depend on taste. The pace of the story is served by characters who don't have a whole novel to share. All dialogues are to the point and don't go astray in longwindedness. You could say it's a style.

Where I think it's most obvious that this is a game made by a small team is in how sparsely filled the gameworld is.

[xolotl]

BW's mentioned in the past that the world-filling in Book 2 ended up getting sidelined a bit by engine development, which had taken up far more time than he initially anticipated. He's said that Book 3 development was going to focus much more on content creation, while leaving the engine more-or-less where it is. So hopefully we've got some "fuller" worlds to explore in Book 3!

[Kordanor]

Ah, nice to hear!

However I am not sure about the team. If it's really a one-man team I doubt that he can actually make that much of an improvement. Of course he could fill the world some more. But for an immersive story/world someone needs a certain talent which can only be improved by so far if you know what I mean.
As I said before, this was something Avadon did very well in my opinion.
So best thing would be some designated story writer. But that's easy to say if you don't need to pay the bills yourself.

[Randomizer]

Avadon from Spiderweb Software has the same type of development team as Basilisk Games where one person does most of the work. Some graphics and minor game work is done by other people, but the story and game engine are done by one person.

[Necromis]

Jedi, you sure we want to open up that big ole can again? Remember a whole topic got locked over the ending.

[Necromis]

I have not yet gotten there, started over a couple times, might post some thoughts after I do. I have gotten the key and have snuck in and out of the mines, have not gone after the crux yet. Gonna go for the pup first. I also gotta check my gear not sure if I missed a bell along the way so far.

[Kordanor]

The story isn't horrible, but not very good either. Some of the NPCs explanations don't make too much sense and the logic in the game isn't too convincing...

Could you go into more detail please and provide us with some examples? And while you're at it, what did you think of the ending?

Well, lets say it like that:
In Avadon and Echalon I had the world map open on another Screen. While in Avadon you have some kind of compendium with tons of text, most of the text is dialogue based. The content however in the big texts and in the dialoges makes complete sense. Each of the countries has a backstory, your role is very clear and your missions actually make you think "Am I fighting for the right cause?" Everything you are told is consistent, the war between the different countries, the different personalities and this also shows in Dungeon Design.
Map Design in Avadon: We make a realistic castle, put NPCs in them and then utilize them for quests. Everyone has something to contribute in some way. If you enter a dungeon the dungeon actually has a meaning. In the dungeon of the Black Castle or however it was called you had a huge space for dragon visitors and so on. Everything made sense.

Map Design in Eschalon: See...we got a quest here and there are two steps. So these two NPCs are now in town. Lets add the vendors and an NPC for a sidequest, done. Same goes for the dungeon: We need traps. Lets add this and that feature. Add a little challenge to the player at this point...alright that should do it. Would anyone actually live here? Well, how should that work? It's purely designed to be conquered by the player.

The Story itself (regarding the stones) or more or less standard. While Avadons story seems very clear in the beginning and than actually makes you think, it's also far more complex and consistent.
In the very beginning Eschalon takes a good way imho. The very first Dialogues are good. Showing the arrow and the item to the NPCs, gathering information, "Did you hear about the murder" and such. But this is the only time in the game such dialogues actually happen.

Two examples from Eschalon:
Dwarf Mines: You greet the king, talk to him. He says the mine and the gem is his property. You just go there. Without any talk to the dwarfs in the dungeon you just attack and kill them all, you go through the whole dungeon, get the gem and out of the mine. Back at the king...well, he doesn't mind that you just killed hundreds of his men and stole the most precious item of his realm.

Edon: Beginning in Edon (you can also call it the "ending") the story begins to become a little hilarious and reaches it's peak of inconsistency.
Take a look at the Eschalon map and locate Edon. Then listen to what the guy in Edon has to say. Nothing of this makes any sense at all. Port workers now went to Port Kuudad instead? Sure thing, because it's just a jump to the northeast, right? Well actually it's on the other side of the world for any NPC who hardly leaves his home. Edon is an important trade route for Eastwillow? Seriously?
And finally he offers you to bring you down to Picaroon Island. Well, take a look at the map again. Did you find Picaroon Island yet? No? Well, then look further south. It's so damn far away that the acting of the Ferry-Boat-Man is just wrong.

Regarding the very ending:

[+] SPOILER

Well, Aliens are not my cup of Tea. I don't like them mixed into a fantasy setting in Wizardy, nor in any other games. However the seem to be implemented in the background. It's not like the fight against minigun carrying aliens in the one level and Axe swinging goblins in the next.
The story about splitting the gems as power-device for the ship...well, doesn't make too much sense, does it? And it's also not really the fate of the world here, it's more like "well, this guy wants to go home, and the other guys are too stupid/ignorant to build a ship working only with 2 gems as well...so I need to stop the single one in order to save the whole worl...erm...unknown group of other aliens."
The open ending itself was fine for me. But I didn't like the whole last section of the game (Edon onwards).

Sorry if this sounds very "ranty", but that's the way I write. No offense intended.

[IJBall]

In retrospective I need to say that Eschalon: Book 2 did not really live up to the expectations it set in the very first hours. It's still a good game, the music is pretty good and the graphics aren't bad as well. Content wise this game has some issues though: A lot of the difficulty settings become pretty pointless after the first hours. Considering at some point you can just summon food, there is no point in having bars for being hungry or thirsty.

A couple of points about this:

1) You actually don't have to play with Hunger/Thirst if you don't want to. (It's just a Game Option. (And I'm personally hoping Fatigue will be added as another Game Option to Book III...) Book I actually didn't have them, and I think a lot of us felt that was a better game. So if you think that seriously detracts from the game experience, you can play without them.)

2) You are certainly not the first person to have said this. I, myself, have commented (in so many words) that Create Food, and probably Draw Water too, are spells that are too powerful. I've suggested a way to 'nerf' those (see the Book III 'Wishlist' thread) - basically, replace them with Satiate Hunger/Quench Thirst spells which would just affect the Hunger/Thirst bars themselves, and do nothing else. My suggestion could be further 'nerfed' if a significant 'cooldown' period was assessed to use of these spells.

But I generally agree that Hunger Thirst/Draw Water (combined with Foraging) were 'overkill' solutions to this particular problem. I think BW is aware of all this.

Degrading items only have an impact as long as you are low on money or don't have an repair skill, also basically only the very first hours.

See above: Another Game Option that you can play without.

And, again, a number of us have comment on Repair being too 'overpowered' in Book II, so I'm sure BW is aware of this issue too.

The balancing of the game combined with the skill system doesn't really give much room of experimenting. I guess you are screwed if you make a jack of all trades character. Besides some of the skills can just be bought for money, others can't. Some are extremely powerful, others are almost worthless. Stats however aren't retroactive, meaning you are gimped if you don't raise Constitution at first, which could then again very painful in the later part of the game.

The first claim isn't exactly true - Kreador can tell you about successfully playing a 'jack of all trades' character.

The 'trainer' issue is a perennial one that we've hashed over many times on these forums. I guess you have a point on this issue, as they do seem to be controversial. I like having them (it gives you more options), but I probably wouldn't object horribly if they were dropped either. (I would object, however, if 'quest-triggered' trainers were eliminated entirely...)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Constitution" - do you mean the ENDurance attribute? If so, you can definitely play characters with relatively low END (provided they are spell-casters, or missile-weapon wielders!).

The story isn't horrible, but not very good either. Some of the NPCs explanations don't make too much sense and the logic in the game isn't too convincing (Avadon absolutely scores here). In addition there are hardly any npcs at all. They are either directly for a quest or merchants, or NPCs you can't talk to at all. This doesn't really make the world feel believable or alive. While the exploration in the world is nice at the very beginning it becomes an dumb uncovering procedure very fast as soon as you get the cartography skill, when you basically start to navigate more on the map than on the playing screen. Lots of the zones aren't really that interesting either.
As I said. Still a good game. But as Avadon unnecessarily wasted potential by not having proper music and bad designed ending (last 20 percent of the game), Eschalon wasted potential by not filling the world porperly and using an immature skill system and game mechanics.

I think you've hit on what is almost universally regarded as Book II's weakness. Book I absolutely is better on this score than Book II (though, IMO, even Book I lags on this score through about the last 1/4 or 1/3 of that game...). Others on this thread have explained the circumstances as to why Book II is that way, and I am personally hopeful that Book III will finally fulfill some of Book I's promise on this score.

In conclusion, there's one other aspect that I think will ultimately make Eschalon a better series than Spiderweb's offerings - and that is the community map-building that I'm hoping will be unleashed post-Book III. I personally think Eschalon has a great engine (better than Spiderweb's offerings). The one part of Eschalon that maybe hasn't be fully explored yet is the kind of story-telling and scenario-building that can be done once the community is free to go beyond the Eschalon game series' gamestory. I'm very curious if one (or a group of us) can come up with something with Eschalon's game engine that can possibly surpass Eschalon's gamestory. Stay tuned...