Thrown Weapons revisited + new ideas

[KillingMoon]

Thrown Weapons has been discussed quite a few times before, but I believe it's a while back by now. Also new members have since joined. I think it might be a good idea to re-introduce the subject and try to get some fresh views on it.

First some links to previous threads on the topic;
Farwalker's Feats and Weapons Skills Discussion: http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/vie ... =12&t=3599
Kreador Freeaxe's Thrown Weapons Feat Discussion: http://www.basiliskgames.com/forums/vie ... 00&p=33356

If I may summarize, there's a concensus among Eschalon players that Thrown Weapons has a few problems:
* heavy
* expensive
* scarce
* relatively low damage
* weak feat

It's very hard to come up with examples of in-game situations where using the Thrown Weapons skill would be your best bet. That's not counting throwing a stone at a powder keg or throwing a flask of Demon Oil, because no skill in Thrown Weapons is needed for that. This thread is about the skill!

There have been a few suggestions to make it more attractive.
IJBall has suggested to make Thrown Weapons recoverable:

That's something I'd like to see changed in Book II (or Book III) - if you throw a spear, or even a dart or a stone, at an enemy, it should be possible to recover it (provided it (e.g. the spear or dart) didn't break during the combat throw) after the melee with the monster is over. I don't know if it would have to be recoverable via a 'loot sack' (my guess is that would be the only workable game mechanism), but there should be some mechanism to get thrown weapons back after use.

(Aside: Also, it seems like it should be possible to 'forage' for stone weapons using the new Foraging skill).

Farwalker suggested a revised feat:

Throw: Auto hit (at least one hits the selected target), volley effect, 50% chance for either a slow movement or fear effect (random one of the two not both) per hit, can’t be used against an adjacent target. Fear duration equals number of missiles in the volley for regular foes, number of missiles divided by 2 (round down) for “powerful” foes.

I can have overlooked some ideas in past threads as well, but these were the easiest ones to find when doing a search.

I'd like to add a few new ones now. 'Recoverability' is the only suggestion for Thrown Weapons listed in IJBalls list of suggestions for Book III, and perhaps recoverability has its own problems. What if you throw 8 darts and there are 7 misses; would 7 lootsacks need to pop up in the landscape? That would look silly, I don't see BasiliskWrangler doing that. The best we can hope for is that he is willing to add the hits to the lootsack of the victim. I think that would be fine, although I don't think it's enough to rescue the Thrown Weapons skill.

So I'd like to put some alternative ideas forward, I'm not sure they've been mentioned before:
For the vanilla skill, give a Thrown Weapons specialist a chance to stun its target - think of how the Boreheads can stun you - that effect. Let's say a minor stun chance at level 1 - 10%, 20%? - slowly moving up with the level.
This would emphasize Thrown Weapons role as a secondary skill; a stunned target would be easier to finish off with melee.
I think this could be strategically interesting - throw from too far away and a stunned target will be completely able again once you've approached it, throw from nearby and you're taking a bigger risk.

For the feat, get rid of Overwhelming Volley. My idea; create a 'Cunning Throw', similar to a normal throw, but giving double XP points upon a kill. Not particularly strong in my view, but the prospect of more XP points will persuade a certain section of players to give Thrown Weapons a try.
Also strategically interesting. Weapon feats will probably mostly be used right now to make the first impact on a victim; a great first hit and the job is already half cleared. With giving double XP upon a kill players will start to re-think their usual approach...
It's different from the usual double, triple or quadruple damage bonuses, which is a must, we need variation.

Overwhelming Volley was different as well, but that's about the only good thing I have to say about it. It isn't realistic to throw a random amount of spears or even darts; you would know what you picked up, right? And with no guarantee that any of your projectiles would make a hit besides one, it isn't something that goes well with a type of weapon that is expensive and scarce.

[IJBall]

Good discussion.

I'm not sure I can contribute much on the suggestions for making Thrown Weapons a viable (primary?) combat skill. Both you and Farwalker have offered up some good suggestions on that. I definitely agree that the Overwhelming Volley feat, as implemented, just isn't getting it done. Perhaps one possibility is to change it so that the Thrown Weapons feat, like Bludgeoning's Devastating Blow, actually negatively affects the opponent's (or opponents'(?)) Armor Rating.

But I will just take this opportunity to get back on my usual soapbox on Thrown's first three problems you listed. If thrown weapons were, a) recoverable, and b) "findable"/"forageable" (it's pretty ludicrous that simple (or even Jagged) "Stones" don't show up in your Foraging sack...), it might make the "heavy" and "expensive" problems less acute. But scarcity is a real issue with Thrown, and it's why I've never even bothered to "test" Thrown as a combat Skill, because I figure it's not a viable choice just for that reason alone.

On the "recoverable" suggestion, I agree with you that thrown weapons (and arrows) should only be recoverable if they actually hit the target, and even then there should only be some percentage chance of recovery.

But even those one or two simple changes would make me at least consider going with Thrown for my character (in Book III).

(Of course, the other issue with Thrown, I assume (I've never tested it!), is that, like Unarmed Combat, you aren't allowed to use "Parry" mode when using Thrown Weapons, yes? If so, that's just one additional factor that would currently make Thrown an unattractive Skill choice...)

One other thing worth mentioning: it seems in Book II like Demon Oil throws never miss - is that indeed the case?
If so, it would seem like Book III needs to go back to the Book I system where Demon Oil throws (even against objects) will occasionally go "off course" and "miss" (sometimes, badly).

Anyway, I should probably add something like "Redesign the Thrown Weapons Skill (and Feat)" to the Book III wishlist (and I think I might even mark the entry as "Popular" - your linked to threads have convinced me that this has been a long-discussed issue!...).

[Kreador Freeaxe]

One other thing worth mentioning: it seems in Book II like Demon Oil throws never miss - is that indeed the case?
If so, it would seem like Book III needs to go back to the Book I system where Demon Oil throws (even against objects) will occasionally go "off course" and "miss" (sometimes, badly).

I don't recall throwing Demon Oil to a square ever missing in Book I or Book II, except that in Book I if you had "enchanted" Demon Oil (+1 to hit or damage), it would no longer act like Demon Oil and explode, but rather like you just threw a rock. That was a bug that was fixed in Book II (I believe by making sure there was no enchanted Demon Oil).

Anyway, I think we all agree that recoverability with Thrown Weapons, in particular, would be a very good addition. Not sure how easy or hard it would be for BW to program it in, though. Having to keep track of how many times you hit your opponent with a thrown weapon, and roll for each one to see if it remains intact, and then add it to any drop. That's a loop of programming that could be ripe for bugginess.

[KillingMoon]

Possibly the idea with Demon Oil never missing, or throwing something at a powder keg, is that you're aiming at an area or static object instead of a moving target.
Any moving target can get out of the area affected by the thrown flask (the burning area).

So personally I'm perfectly okay with this, giving a miss chance could easily become frustrating: 'What? I can't even hit that section of floor a couple of yards in front of me?!' Demon Oil is expensive as well, as we all know...

With aiming at a powder keg it's the same thing, you can't miss. The only thing affected by the Thrown Weapons skill - or the Bow skill, if you're using archery - is the damage, and a low damage will not yet ignite the powder keg, so you're more likely to need two shots or so without any skill.
Here I would find it a lot more acceptable to introduce a chance to miss, it wouldn't be unlogical, although I don't feel strongly about it.

[SpottedShroom]

Probably just making simple thrown weapons show up in forage bags would be a sufficient (and easy to implement) fix, but that would lead to situations where late in the game you're still lobbing rocks at bosses and the like. A high skill is enough to offset a low weapon base damage.

I also think that near-100% recoverability for high quality thrown weapons might work well, and could help address my objection above. If you buy an adamantium spear crafted by the most skilled blacksmith in the realm, that ought to be good basically indefinitely, unless you throw it off a cliff.

Finally, I could imagine replacing thrown rocks with a sling item. It would still do 1 base damage, but wouldn't need ammunition, with the idea being that you can almost always pick up rocks from the ground. Several other games model slings as having infinite ammo, but require arrows and bolts for bows and crossbows. Later on you could purchase spears, etc. that would do more damage, but could always fall back on the sling if you ran out or they broke.

[voyager39]

My thoughts...

Fear is a good way...my slightly modified view is that let it prevent a lone enemy from charging in for melee combat if the player is say above skill level 15 in thrown weapons (or another appropriate level) and he/she is also armed with a thrown weapon of very high quality. They either attack long range (if capable) or else ignore the player passing at a distance that's not too close.

Intelligent enemies may also retreat (similar to when mortally wounded) in case they are confronted in a confined space like a corridor. Enemies may still charge if they are more then one or if the skill is low or the weapon wielded is not of high quality.

The rule can be further honed to apply outrightly in case of enemies which presumably have a higher degree of intelligence (like say Taurax onwards). Beasts with lesser intelligence and magical creatures may not obey this rule at all. All enemies may charge for melee combat once they suffer a hit.

This would give a fair advantage to thrown weapons IMHO. Say I am Level 15 and carrying a divine spear, the intelligent enemies will only attack from a distance and not try to charge in. The benefits are in terms of freedom of movement rather then in terms of ability to kill.

[Bulados2]

Awesome Ideas! The only thing affected by the Thrown Weapons skill - or the Bow skill, if you're using archery - is the damage, and a low damage will not yet ignite the powder keg, so you're more likely to need two shots or so without any skill.








------------------------------------------------------
Save a life, delete a Face Book account today.
Reserving the right to ignore stupid.
The answer is no, I won't explain myself.
al-mar.

[Lord_P]

The sling idea suggested by SpottedShroom was very good.

Throwing weapons are rare, even more than arrows. Also you can't "buy the shop clean", because thrown weapons are expensive. One can manage long with only standard arrows and upgrading the bow, but thrown weapon damage is only increased by the weapon. I too wonder why stones must be bought brom blacksmiths rather than found or foraged. Best thing is that we have to pay for the rocks!

: "Excuse me, sir. Why do you charge 10g for a simple rock?"
: "'Cause they 'r special stones."

[Kreador Freeaxe]

Well, blacksmith's in Eschalon are the old-world Lowe's Home Improvement stores. People go into those and pay for rocks every day.

[Lord_P]

Logical feat would be "never misses", but because feats always hit the target, there would be no use for it. "Critical Throw"; scores a critical strike and has a chance to stun the target?

About harpoons: I see no reason to use these. They weight a ton and cost your life savings (You know, the money you could use when you retire to your home and buy special stones for gardening purposes.)