Min-Maxxing & Exploits

[IJBall]

For non-weapon training, quests still could add special techniques or recipes, or even spells.

Alchemy: recipe for a memory-erasing potion that reduces you a level (lose exp as well) in return for some skill points
Cartography: NPC draws a location or two on your map, in detail
Meditation: some slight boost to health regen along with mana
Dodge: boost to missile avoidance
Hide in Shadows: a bonus to mêlée attacks while hidden
Pick Locks: less pick breakage
Skullduggery: PLACE traps! mwahahahaha
Spot Hidden: radius extended by 1 square [or more?...]

Some very cool ideas in here - hope BW sees these.

Simple fix:
Skill trainers add a certain amount of points through their training (like five) and books continue to add two. You CANNOT add skill points from book or trainer unless you already have at least one point in the skill already.

Make sense?

So if I have 11 in Bows and I read the book, I go up to 13. Then I use the trainer all five times I go up to 18. If I have 0 in bows, neither the trainer or the book even make sense to me. The book is teaching you specific extra knowledge you couldn't've gained on your own. Same with the trainer. However, if you've never learned this skill on your own, you would never be able to understand the book or the trainer in a meaningful way in the first place.

This is another very interesting suggestion.

I'm not sure I like the second part of it (i.e. the "can't add Skill points unless you already have that Skill" part) - though I can see how that change would introduce some very interesting 'game-balancing' issues(benefits?) to the game, and would definitely make the "Jack of All Trades" challenge meaningful!

But I do like the first part of it - especially if gaining the 5-levels at once cost you a *pretty penny* (like 2000 g.p. instead of just 1500 g.p.!)

Anyway, this is another suggestion that's worth mulling over...

[AXS]

The idea is to have less, "Oh, this character is terrible. What am I going to do, meditate my way through the Taurax? BUHLEETED!"

How does removing "exploits" or changing trainer behavior fix this? Is the idea is to make trainers and books good enough to save a poor character build?

I think trainers and skill books are fine as-is. As I detailed elsewhere, I would like to see skills, abilities, and spells be balanced a bit better, but that's not about removing exploits as much as trying to give people fewer poor choices to make.

This is why making an RPG system that is truly fun is incredibly hard to do!!

- We want a system that doesn't hold the player's hand, yet also doesn't allow the player to make too many bad choices, while developing their character.
- We want a system that limits min-maxing, yet can allow players to make unique characters that feel truly different from game to game.
- We want a system without exploits, yet still allow creative people to come up with unique solutions for making their dream character from all the available options.

So, how do we achieve all these goals without breaking the old-school nature of Eschalon?

Only one word: TOUCHÉ

[Necromis]

Ok, we really have an easy solution to this all. Keep what we have be let it happen at any time, and bring back the quest like we had in Book I.

Remember in Book I to get the cartography trainer you had to do the quest for him. Well have that be the same thing. A quest to unlock the ability to get trained in a skill. Secondly keep the number of levels you can be trained the same just raise the cost based on the level being learned. So if you are already level 10 the trainer can teach you level 11-18 but it costs you 1100-1800 for each point. I would probably make one other change and have the first level cost more than it currently does. Meaning going from no skill to level 1. After all it costs you 3 skill points shouldn't it cost you more gold, too?

[Initld]

I like some of these ideas here and was wondering if being forced to wait a game day between point purchases from a skill trainer would help with balancing? Like the trainer says " Here is your lesson for today, come back when you can learn some more." That way you would have time to use the new skill? Just a thought.

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I like some of these ideas here and was wondering if being forced to wait a game day between point purchases from a skill trainer would help with balancing? Like the trainer says " Here is your lesson for today, come back when you can learn some more." That way you would have time to use the new skill? Just a thought.

I think that would be more annoyance than balancing element. That's always the difficulty in finding a way to balance a game, working out what will actually make it play better and what will just annoy the player.

[munster]

Throwing in my own opinion, I don't know if there is a solution. If someone is bound and determined to build the absolute strongest, unkillable, over-powered character they can in order to smash their way through the game, then they will find some exploit or cheat or other way to do it.

Trying to avoid this by making the game excessively difficult or complicated will only discourage players with weaker characters. I think leave the present level of difficulty as it is; I'm by no means an expert player, but I did manage (with a combination of learning from my mistakes through getting killed , some luck, and using the forums on here) to create a character I'm happy with and that has a good level of success, while not being so powerful as to overcome everything (I still do a reasonable amount of tactical withdrawal, a.k.a. "running away").

Regarding trainers and books, my own personal opinion is that you need some help early on, but it is more realistic (in a game-play sense and a real-world sense) that you have a better chance of finding trainers in the big cities, and that by the time you make your way there, you already have some levels in the skills you want to be trained in. So I suppose my suggestion is either have skills books easily available from the start, so you can get at least a basic level in the skills you choose, or allow the NPCs to do a basic training level on the side (e.g. the innkeeper will train you in level 1 mercantile for 100 gold, same with the alchemist or potions shop keeper giving you elemental or divination skills training, blacksmith for repair, etc.)

You can then either buy books, wait until you meet the trainers in the big towns, or put your points into skills - all your own decision. The one thing I do agree about is that Cartography is really so essential, you should either get access to books/trainers early or get some basic level in it.

[munster]

What am I going to do, meditate my way through the Taurax?

Quite by accident, on the way to Talushorn I discovered that although my character wasn't strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with a bunch of Taurax, this method worked:

1. I had the spell Element Armour at a decent level and proximity to lava streams.
2. Walk around until I run into a bunch of Taurax. "Run away" - but slowly enough that they kept following me. Head over to lava.
3. Wait for Taurax to catch up. Cast Element Armour.
4. Walk out on lava. Taurax follow. Mmmm - barbecue!

[IJBall]

What am I going to do, meditate my way through the Taurax?

Quite by accident, on the way to Talushorn I discovered that although my character wasn't strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with a bunch of Taurax, this method worked:

1. I had the spell Element Armour at a decent level and proximity to lava streams.
2. Walk around until I run into a bunch of Taurax. "Run away" - but slowly enough that they kept following me. Head over to lava.
3. Wait for Taurax to catch up. Cast Element Armour.
4. Walk out on lava. Taurax follow. Mmmm - barbecue!

Semi-important follow-up question: Did you notice if your character was awarded the XP when the Taurax died purely by lava?

I ask because, previous to v1.05 of Book II, there were at least some instances where mobs' death by lava was not yielding the XP to the player.

[Randomizer]

In early versions of Book 2, I was killing a taurax and he ran away to suicide into a lava pool to deprive me of experience.

[SpottedShroom]

In early versions of Book 2, I was killing a taurax and he ran away to suicide into a lava pool to deprive me of experience.

Huh, the walking steaks are smarter than they look.

[munster]

Did you notice if your character was awarded the XP when the Taurax died purely by lava?

I can't remember, but I don't think I did.

On the other hand, I got a lot of delicious ready-cooked steaks.

[leshpar]

I think there are some great ideas in this thread. I just want to put it out there that I don't think I'd change much of anything in eschalon. I love the skill system. I love the combat. I love the customization.

Well, I'd change one thing: add multiple playable races that don't really change much besides what choosing your birthplace does now (and changes how you look). To use the elder scrolls as an example: Say I wanted to play a Kajiit. They would start with maybe +1 to unarmed combat or something and then look like a yellow cat with a tail. But this is truely just a cosmetic thing, not really a complaint or dealbreaker.

Lastly, I had to parry or invis my way into talushorn :3.

[Dragonlady]

Well, I'd change one thing: add multiple playable races that don't really change much besides what choosing your birthplace does now (and changes how you look). To use the elder scrolls as an example: Say I wanted to play a Kajiit. They would start with maybe +1 to unarmed combat or something and then look like a yellow cat with a tail.

[leshpar]

lol. it was an example. I didn't wanna use an elf or a dwarf 8P.

[Donovan]

For non-weapon training, quests still could add special techniques or recipes, or even spells.

Alchemy: recipe for a memory-erasing potion that reduces you a level (lose exp as well) in return for some skill points
Cartography: NPC draws a location or two on your map, in detail
Meditation: some slight boost to health regen along with mana
Dodge: boost to missile avoidance
Hide in Shadows: a bonus to mêlée attacks while hidden
Pick Locks: less pick breakage
Skullduggery: PLACE traps! mwahahahaha
Spot Hidden: radius extended by 1 square [or more?...]

Some very cool ideas in here - hope BW sees these.

Simple fix:
Skill trainers add a certain amount of points through their training (like five) and books continue to add two. You CANNOT add skill points from book or trainer unless you already have at least one point in the skill already.

Make sense?

So if I have 11 in Bows and I read the book, I go up to 13. Then I use the trainer all five times I go up to 18. If I have 0 in bows, neither the trainer or the book even make sense to me. The book is teaching you specific extra knowledge you couldn't've gained on your own. Same with the trainer. However, if you've never learned this skill on your own, you would never be able to understand the book or the trainer in a meaningful way in the first place.

This is another very interesting suggestion.

I'm not sure I like the second part of it (i.e. the "can't add Skill points unless you already have that Skill" part) - though I can see how that change would introduce some very interesting 'game-balancing' issues(benefits?) to the game, and would definitely make the "Jack of All Trades" challenge meaningful!

But I do like the first part of it - especially if gaining the 5-levels at once cost you a *pretty penny* (like 2000 g.p. instead of just 1500 g.p.!)

Anyway, this is another suggestion that's worth mulling over...

I agree with the above, but in general would point out that I love the games as they are. In particular, I'm not sure I understand the complaints re: cartography. Obviously a useful skill, so many or most folks will spend resources on it at the expense of weapons/magic, etc., particularly when you realize that cartographers aren't popping up early.

On a separate note, I think an interesting challenge BW must have is making the game fun on the first walk through versus follow-up play. They are quite different experiences, obviously.