just how balanced and bug free is the game?

[mortification8]

Furthermore, combat even as a fledgling caster is ridiculously easy. It boils down to casting until you run out of MPs, running away to rest until you're full again, rinse repeat. Non-casters have to be much more cautious and prudent in combat, have a disadvantage at night that casters don't have to worry about, and have to burn through far more money on equipment, potions and materials for alchemy.

I have to second this. I tried playing through as a fighter without realizing that certain skills such as Pick Lock and Spot Hidden were pretty much required when magic was not available. Combat is very tough; you run through a lot of Demon Oils and Healing Elixirs even for small mobs. The economics don't work out; i. e. you lose money per each combat.

It's intriguing to see a system where playing a tank isn't the easiest option; however, I think tanks might need to be beefed up a bit more than they currently are.

[GSV3MiaC]

You can play a tank, but not a pure tank. You need several spells (like heal) or else you are going to go broke, or die of boredom resting. Resting is very bad for the NPCs (I lost the alchemy teacher that way) if it spawns mobs around you (imagine, an alchemy teacher who failed to run away and drink Heal IV).

[DTravel]

Completely unbalanced.

If you can elaborate on this, we'd love to try to make the game more enjoyable for you. From your other comments, it looks like you are finding the game too hard. However, a few others are finding it too easy, but most have told us it's just about right.

This is about the best case scenario for an RPG, because everyone plays their characters differently and everyone is going to have a different opinion on the game's difficulty.

I mentioned elsewhere that 80% of the player's hits do no damage. With no manual I have no way of knowing why that is or how (or even if) I can do anything about it. That's probably the single biggest problem I've run in to as it renders what little skill improvement the player can do irrelevant.

Next is probably insufficient ability to raise skills. With gold so tight that I can't even maintain a full quiver of arrows let alone buy better equipment, putting trainers who require hundreds of gold to raise a skill one point is effectively the same as no trainers. So the player is forced to rely solely on what he can improve via levelling up, which doesn't do nearly enough there.

Third, just because a character would lose against a Thug at level 2 and you think should be able to fight one at level 5 does not automatically mean he can fight three or four at once at level 5. Monsters rise in power and in numbers faster than the character does. At only level 5 I had run out of places I could go. I had cleared out all the monsters I could fight and then couldn't go anywhere else because the monsters everywhere else were too powerful to fight and all moved as fast as I did, so running away did no good.

Mostly, I just don't find "die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, oh so that's how I open that door, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, finally made it to this room, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, etc. etc. etc." to be fun. Even back in the days of TSR-80s and Apple IIs it was no fun and I have less tolerance for it now than I did back then.

If you want to channel the players thru a storyline, that's fine. But you have to be very careful to balance what they are going to be able to do against where you are allowing them to go. I don't see that in this game.

From a coding POV, this is great work. The music is good, the graphics are wonderful, the game engine appears to be solid and working well. But there is just no game play balance.

[Josia]

Completely unbalanced.

Game Balance != Game Difficulty (e.g. balanced does not mean easy).

To borrow from the FAQ:

Compare Wizardy's attribute and skill system with most contemporary RPGs, which (for the most part) have significantly reduced the usefulness of character stats and skills. It is assumed that the casual gamer today doesn't want to micromanage their character, and perhaps they don’t, but back in the day you had to if you wanted to be successful. That was playing a RPG.

I think you just need a little more guidance on how to manage your stats and skills. It sounds very much like you just have a poorly managed/rolled set of stats and skills and you simply need more guidance on how to manage.

With no manual I have no way of knowing why that is or how (or even if) I can do anything about it.

I'm confused. There is a manual. I thought it came with the Demo as well, although my memory may be off as I only had the Demo for a few hours.

Granted, the manual is skinny but definitely answers the "why and how" question at least at a high level. For more specifics folks on these boards are pretty well versed in what works and what doesn't.

Mostly, I just don't find "die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, oh so that's how I open that door, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, finally made it to this room, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, etc. etc. etc." to be fun. Even back in the days of TSR-80s and Apple IIs it was no fun and I have less tolerance for it now than I did back then.

All of your issues seem to stem from the above issue (poor stat/skill management due to lack of guidance). In about 30 hours of playing over 2 main characters, I think I've died maybe 6 - 10 times, and all because I stretched myself a little further than I was capable of at the time and/or got lazy and wasn't paying attention to current HP/MP or somesuch. With my current character, I've only died once because I've become much better at managing my stats and skills the second time through.

[dak]

Mostly, I just don't find "die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, oh so that's how I open that door, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, finally made it to this room, save, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, die, reload, etc. etc. etc.

I disagree I find the game too easy just as many other people, maybe you should try another character build??

[GSV3MiaC]

So what character stats do you have which allow you to go toe-to-toe with a mercenary or minotaur?? Even buffed-up (bless, leatherskin, etc) I have trouble with one, and get murdered by two or more .. my % to hit is about 45, theirs is 80.

[Josia]

So what character stats do you have which allow you to go toe-to-toe with a mercenary or minotaur?? Even buffed-up (bless, leatherskin, etc) I have trouble with one, and get murdered by two or more .. my % to hit is about 45, theirs is 80.

If leatherskin is the best you've got, you probably shouldn't be going toe-to-toe with either.

In any event, it depends on your build. For Divination-primary, Stoneskin is much better defensively (and no, they don't really stack). Haste will effectively double your ability to fight for a short period of time. Ogre's Strength and Nimbleness can make a tremendous difference. Fleshboil at range will soften them up a bit. Attacking at night with Cat's Eyes can really even the playing field, as well.

For a Melee primary, lots and lots of hitpoints (get high Endurance early) is of course important, as is a very high Weapon skill (>> 10). Having good armor is very important. Armor skill can help as well with the DR. A high Dexterity is also critical, as it affects both their to-hit and yours. The Dodge skill can make a big difference as well.

I can't speak for any other types of builds, but I imagine there are similar strategies, excepting, of course, Theif-type or Ranger-types that depend on stealth. These builds are really not meant to be going toe-to-toe with the big boys in melee. Sneaking around, taking pot-shots from range, only drawing one to fight at a time ~ these are likely important here.

[GSV3MiaC]

Well leatherskin was what I acquired when I decided I needed some magic backup for my supposed tank. Didn't find stoneskin yet. Actually my problem was I rolled a poor (total stats=87, before adding the 15 flexipoints) character to start with - didn't realise it was actually random and I should roll again (balancing games with random characters is WAY WAY harder than when you start of pretty nearly fixed).

Anyway, finished now. The final area was pretty easy for a 'grand finale', and after that the end was a tad abrupt, putting you back to the desktop (why not main menu so you could play again?). I already had the keys and what the giants wanted long before I was asked.

Overall: Quite fun, but a bit short (30 hours) compared to an Avernum .. and not much in the way of multiple options / replay value (I mean basically you can do all the quests on the first pass .. no choosing necessary).

[noirsoft]

I would agree with everything DTravel has said about the game not being balanced, or at least having a lot of tedious elements. I would add:

Opening anything locked is annoying: The options seem to be:
1) Waste three days of game time on firebolt until no mana, rest, repeat
2) Break your weapon on bashing before you open anything
3) Spend three of the precious few skill points on lockpicking, only to be unable to open anything anyways, so might as well got for 1 or 2
4) give up.

1 seems to be the only way worth doing, and it is tedious, and of course means wasted skill points in order to cast. Since you now need to spend the points there, archery is not worth getting at all.

Random die rolls for character attributes is not good. All it does is force players to hit re-roll for hours until the random numbers come up near what they want. It also means that some characters are simply better than others, since ther is no balancing of the numbers. Just make it purely point buy.

Light armor skill is almost essential in the beginning as there is not enough money to purchase any heavy armor, but it's a waste of 3 skill points to pick it up for fighters who will stop using it once they can buy heavy armor.

Cartography should not exist as a skill. Just give the players the automap. I put 4 points into it and I can't tell that something is water?

Too few skill points, or the 3 points for new skills is too expensive. Too many skills are needed to make the game enjoyable. Character development should not be a choice between "Which frustrating gameplay element am I willing to tolerate"?

I'm being very hard on the game, yes, but I really think it could be a great game if the tedium could be eliminated. And yes, I did buy the full version and am trying to figure out what kind of build is actually playable. On the good side, I think the combat and magic skills are balanced, but the non-damage-dealing skills seem to all be necessary just to get through the game, and there aren't snough skill points to make a really playable character.

[Dhruin]

Since, I'm currently playing a ranger (and therefore don't have many thief-y skills), I accept I'm not going to be able to open everything that is locked. I appreciate not everyone will agree but I think this is the sort of thing Eschalon is aiming for - you have to make some hard compromises with your character development (yes, you can bash, rest, bash, rest but that's your choice). If every character could easily open locks, it wouldn't be the "old-school" game they were aiming for.

[Madmarcus]

Noirsoft, there at least two other ways to open locks.

Bash with empty hands - this might require some points in unarmed combat but it works on every locked object
Use LockMelt - I haven't tried this as I have not used Elemental magic yet

The last one has a nice side effect. The loot in chests and barrels (except some fixed ones) seems to be based on level. So if you leave some until later while you wait to find or afford lockmelt you will get better stuff on average.

[Jaesun]

Use potions of Demon Oil?

[Loriac]

Some posts on the topic analysing spell damage efficiency made me think about balance in this game around casters. And much as it pains me to say this, as I enjoy playing casters more than anything else in rpgs, casters in Eschalon are completely overpowered from what I can see.

Elemental magic includes a guaranteed lockpick spell and a disarm trap spell. It also includes utilities such as invisibility and camouflage. For combat efficiency, you get enhancements to hit and damage. You get portal for fast travel anywhere, which is very convenient and saves time.

Divination meanwhile gives you buffs like stoneskin and bless. You can also use it to heal.

To get high skills in both these disciplines is easily managed. Why? Well, after having played for a while, I don't think a pure caster ever needs to take another skill at all. What about armor, what about weapons? Well, firstly you can find books for these to give you the ability to at least wear the items, but the truth is you shouldn't actually need to use weapons and armor as a pure caster. You barely even need meditation, as if you raise Perception to 38 or so, meditation gives no further benefits. This might seem like a high perception to have, but you can actually get Perception 40 at Level 4 (!).

In fact, when I went through the list of skills, I couldn't see a single one that was necessary if you are an expert in Elemental and Divination. A couple are nice to have, particularly alchemy which synergises with the caster build by giving you easy access to Mana potions, and whats worse, you can get it to a level where you can create Mana III and Healing III without using a single skill point (total investment is c.1600gp plus a brewmaster ring, of which there is a guaranteed drop at a specific location near the start of the game).

So I have to say, I really don't see what limitations casters have in this game, and what keeps them balanced. If you do a pure build, you could run around pretty much naked and weaponless, i.e. you don't need to spend any money on items. You need to buy spells of course, but you can pick out the essentials relatively cheaply, and these are one-off expenses.

[Benedict]

Light armor skill is almost essential in the beginning as there is not enough money to purchase any heavy armor, but it's a waste of 3 skill points to pick it up for fighters who will stop using it once they can buy heavy armor.

Is the penalty that big? You only seem to get it once no matter how many pieces of light armour you equip so I've just taken the penalty on the chin and made sure I have light armour in every slot.

Anyway, as for balancing, I started a rogue build and was getting slaughtered, so went back and tried a mage build and the balancing was totally different. The rogue build is critically weak in the early game (at least) IMO, any ability to hide in shadows is wasted because the rogue needs to see himself and the odd bit of lockpicking doesn't in any way make up for the lack of combat prowess. As for sneaking around things, I didn't even get that far before giving up.

The VERY limited number of skill points really screws up rogues as well. They need to be good in light armour, a weapon, hide in shadows, move silently, pick locks, skullduggery, survival, divination so that they can get cats eyes, find hidden so that they can spot the traps (and a rogue build is probably going to have a low perception so they need a few points in the skill to even equal a mage who's just pumped it as their primary attribute). Plus any generic skills like lore or cartography. By contrast a mage can just pump elemental magic and meditation (and if they just pump those and save their skill points from character creation to use up at level 2 they can be throwing around level 6 firebolts with the maximum mana regeneration rate) and everything else is a bonus.

It's a tricky one, the tendency to go for a skill based system with initial choice of class being a minimal effect makes it difficult to give different classes different skill point allocations, but when you've got a rogue who needs to be quite good a few different things it makes them seriously weak. Maybe balance the start differently, e.g. give rogues and warriors several starting skills against only one for mages or healers but make it very expensive to pick up divination or elemental magic as a secondary skill.

Rogues also need some kind of bonuses to sight and combat in the dark, maybe on the grounds that they're more used to being in the dark. And fighters need some kind of special attack modes.

[leonhartt]

Anyway, as for balancing, I started a rogue build and was getting slaughtered, so went back and tried a mage build and the balancing was totally different. The rogue build is critically weak in the early game (at least) IMO, any ability to hide in shadows is wasted because the rogue needs to see himself and the odd bit of lockpicking doesn't in any way make up for the lack of combat prowess. As for sneaking around things, I didn't even get that far before giving up.

The VERY limited number of skill points really screws up rogues as well. They need to be good in light armour, a weapon, hide in shadows, move silently, pick locks, skullduggery, survival, divination so that they can get cats eyes, find hidden so that they can spot the traps (and a rogue build is probably going to have a low perception so they need a few points in the skill to even equal a mage who's just pumped it as their primary attribute). Plus any generic skills like lore or cartography. By contrast a mage can just pump elemental magic and meditation (and if they just pump those and save their skill points from character creation to use up at level 2 they can be throwing around level 6 firebolts with the maximum mana regeneration rate) and everything else is a bonus.

It's a tricky one, the tendency to go for a skill based system with initial choice of class being a minimal effect makes it difficult to give different classes different skill point allocations, but when you've got a rogue who needs to be quite good a few different things it makes them seriously weak. Maybe balance the start differently, e.g. give rogues and warriors several starting skills against only one for mages or healers but make it very expensive to pick up divination or elemental magic as a secondary skill.

Rogues also need some kind of bonuses to sight and combat in the dark, maybe on the grounds that they're more used to being in the dark. And fighters need some kind of special attack modes.

Agreed on the last part. It's hard to play as a pure rogue in my opinion.

Investing many points in "lock picking" doesn't seem to have much advantage for rogues in the early part of the game, except that you can open some locked chests and sell some stuff.

So i think it would be better for rogues to start out with "combat" related skills, for them to survive and then to branch out to other "thief" skills later. Maybe adding skills such as "Dodge" would be better.

Yeah, a rogue also needs many skills to survive. It's all about skills management and what you want to add when you level up. It's a dilemma isn't it, whether to invest in "combat" skills or "non-combat" skills sometimes.

I'm playing a mage right now. Maybe after completing this game once with my mage character, i'll play rogue. In the mean time, i'll see how this game balances itself out.