Dodge - Maximum effect?

[Knightofhopex]

I notice after gaining several levels that Minotaur still have a 22% chance to hit me, day and night, at the same armor value. Does Dodge have a maximum effect? Just wondering.

FYI, I also find the same thing is true now when I remove my Rabbit's Foot, (take a -3 on my dodge) and allow the enemy to swing. Their chance to strike me does not change. Please let me know what's going on here.

Thanks!

[Knightofhopex]

Additionally, I just now found out about *DIRE* Rabbit's Foot.... Lot of good it does me now. :/ lol

[SpottedShroom]

I believe dodge does not actually affect the enemy's to-hit chance that gets displayed in game. Rather, it's a separate miss chance that's computed after (or before?) the main one. This seems unnecessarily complicated, and also makes underpowered at low levels and overpowered at high ones, so I've suggested that dodge merely contribute to AR in Book III. We'll see whether that makes the cut :)

[IJBall]

I believe dodge does not actually affect the enemy's to-hit chance that gets displayed in game. Rather, it's a separate miss chance that's computed after (or before?) the main one. This seems unnecessarily complicated, and also makes underpowered at low levels and overpowered at high ones, so I've suggested that dodge merely contribute to AR in Book III. We'll see whether that makes the cut

Not quite:

Dodge doesn't affect an enemy's "generic" ToHit number, that is correct.

However, if does affect your ToHit score on them on your follow-up attack after your character successfully Dodges (up to a 50% improvement on your ToHit score).

But, yeah - Dodge doesn't actually affect mobs' ToHit scores on you.

[Lord_P]

I don't think dodge should contribute to AR. It should be removed and let speed do the job! Or if that's not possible, the skill should be balanced, so that lower levels are more effective and higher levels less effective.

[IJBall]

I don't think dodge should contribute to AR. It should be removed and let speed do the job! Or if that's not possible, the skill should be balanced, so that lower levels are more effective and higher levels less effective.

As has been suggested repeatedly in the forums, the most obvious way to "fix" Dodge is to have SPEED compliment the Dodge skill, in the same way that DEX compliments skills like Move Silently.

In fact, I'd like to see the Dodge skill reconfigured so that it works a lot like Move Silently: you seem to get a "base" Move Silently score just from DEX (even without having the Move Silently "skill") - I'd like to see characters get a "base" Dodge (say, 1%) just from having a high enough SPD score (say, SPD = 20, with another +1% Dodge chance for every 5 points in SPD above SPD=20) even without having the Dodge "skill" just the same way.

Anyway, I think many of the issues with Dodge can be solved just by having SPD compliment the Dodge skill...

[Knightofhopex]

I don't think dodge should contribute to AR. It should be removed and let speed do the job! Or if that's not possible, the skill should be balanced, so that lower levels are more effective and higher levels less effective.

I'm perfectly fine with Dodge as is. I also like the 10% (or greater) bonus to hit if you dodge. The honest truth is that, at only 1% per skill rank, the ability is badly under-powered at all levels from a statistical standpoint. Follow along with me here for a second:

If you were to redistribute my ranks in dodge to other skills, I would actually be harder to kill at the same level. There are screenshots of characters on this forum that have a 2% chance to be struck by Spire Guards due to buffs. Whereas, even with my armor and dodge, if calculated the way it actually works, those same enemies have a 10.8% chance to hit me. ( .4 chance NOT to miss times .27 chance to actually hit if that occurs, times 100. )

If I had been dumping those skill points into other skills, not only could I become more or less become invincible, I could be doing more damage because my buffs and my damage spells would be more powerful.

This is a very common error in made by RPG makers and gamers in a broad spectrum of games and genres. They believe something that makes a character HARDER to KILL is overpowered so they nerf all the good defensive skills brains out. Then the game devolves purely into trying to do the most damage possible in order to win because how difficult your character is to kill depends solely on what the makers believe is 'fair', never minding how the actual numbers work out if you favor those skills over other things.

In this case, there are worse ways to become harder to kill, and this is still being called for by some people for a nerf. This means that the game not only has devolved into causing the most damage, but using only one method to protect one's self effectively. In my opinion, that's bad game design.

This is actually a principle used in Economics as well; Frédéric Bastiat called this ignoring 'that which is unseen' in his 1850 essay where he introduces this idea. That which is seen appears to be good or large or what have you, but what you don't see is the other opportunities that were lost that might have been greater, the 'unseen', in order to obtain that which IS seen. The parable he uses in his essay to demonstrate this is often called the 'Broken Window Fallacy'.

Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition made this mistake and the game is such where at levels greater than 15, all the more challenging monsters can basically instantly kill a single character. So the only way to deal with them is either to be invisible constantly, kill them with an instant kill spell, or figure out some other way to win the fight in under 5 turns.

What would have been MUCH more ENTERTAINING, (in this case and many others,) would be to actually have the healing and damage reduction to STAND and FIGHT! And If you don't believe me that this is true, roll an Elder Shadow Dragon from the extended monster manual ( forget which one ), and make a level 20 Fighter with as high Armor Class and Hit Points as possible and see how many turns he can survive being clawed and breath weapon'd. And then if you think that's ridiculous, try allowing the dragon to grapple him and see if he survives being pinned more than once or twice. I assure you, he will not. ( I know from experience. )

Now in terms of balancing an auto-dodge, I do have one idea. (This idea isn't mine, this has actually comes from other games.) Giving enemies -and presumably players- a *base chance to hit instantly* would balance a 100% dodge chance. Some attacks, say 1 in 30 or 1 in 40, auto-confirming a hit would limit the number of enemies you can engage at the same time. This would guarantee that if you're fighting 30-40 enemies, you're getting hit at least once a turn. If you're fighting 20, you're still getting hit, on average, every other turn. If you are particularly lucky or unlucky, you suffer a little more or a little less. It would also give a single boss mob a significant chance to blow your doors off, even though you're a high level badass.

There are ways to balance things without nerfing the actual ability. As long as you actually trade something else you're missing out on for them, I have no problem with defensive abilities being potent. That's just rewarding good gameplay. In a good rule setting, players should always be able to work to earn epic combat abilities, including defensive ones, and play the game more than one way.

Anyways, that's my two cents. I hope you guys enjoyed and employ these ideas in your future gaming.

[Bartholom]

so, dodge does not lower the enemys to hit chance - but what does? i'd really like to be hard to hit, but i just can't figure out how this works, nothing i chose on level up seems to alter this number at the next fight.

[SpottedShroom]

so, dodge does not lower the enemys to hit chance - but what does? i'd really like to be hard to hit, but i just can't figure out how this works, nothing i chose on level up seems to alter this number at the next fight.

Dodge does not lower an enemy's to-hit chance. It's a separate calculation unrelated to how effective your enemy is. You have a 1% chance for any attack to miss you for each level of Dodge.

You can lower to-hit chance by wearing better armor, or increasing Dexterity or Speed to a multiple of 5.