Spell Damage Efficency - Math - Spell spoilers

[Jazzepi]

My general style of play begets that I play a caster. I love wizards. I love big flashy effects. I love blowing stuff up with a few incantation, and doing crazy, unmentionable things with magic that normal mortals can't. So, in that vein, I made a pure caster for Eschalon. At first it was a little difficult, as paper mages tend to be since I didn't have a large enough mana pool, and regen was very slow. Now all those problems are behind me, but a new one has cropped up that has basically rendered my character useless.

The problem is that the spell damage / mana ratio does not improve with higher level spells, in fact, it actually declines significantly. What this means is that there is no reason to ever cast anything but Fire Dart, and as the enemies hitpoints grow, you eventually reach a point where their hitpoints are so high that, without more damage efficient spells, you lack the ability to effectively kill even a single one of them.

Before I delve more into why this is a problem, I want to present the math that I'm using to come to these conclusions. Conclusions that are based on an inkling I had simply from playing for a while.

This may not format too terribly well on your screen, so bear with me.

Name || Mana/Lvl || Damage Avg/Lvl || Damage per mana
Fire Dart || 2 || 3 || 1.5
Compress Atmosphere || 6 || 7.5 || 1.25
Deep Freeze || 6 || 6.5 || 1.08
Fireball || 6 || 5.5 || .9
Supernova || 10 || 3.5 || .35

These are all the elemental nuking spells that I have discovered thus far in the game. It is important to note that since all spells scale in a linear fashion, it's only important to look at the ratio since it never changes.

The first column is the name of the spell. The second column is the mana it costs per level of the spell. The third column is the damage average per level of the spell. You add the two most extreme points that can be rolled for the damage on a given spell, and then divide by two which gives you the average number that will appear. Since every position on the damage "die" is equally likely to occur, adding another level will add the same amount of average damage per level. The last, and most important, column is the damage per mana spent. You take the damage/lvl and divide by mana/lvl. This gives you a ratio of how much damage you get, on average, per each point of spent per level. This column can be multiplied by the number of enemies effected assuming that the spell does equal damage to all enemies, but this barely makes up for the low efficiency as fireball doesn't deal full damage to the creatures around the main one it hits, and super nova's efficiency is too low.

Phew! Now after doing all that math I wasn't terribly surprised. I had expected, each time when I got deep freeze and compress atmosphere, that the spells would be more efficient. Afterall, I've been gaining mana at a steady, near-linear rate, and the enemies have been gaining hitpoints at the same amount. The problem is that those new enemies that have more and more hitpoints aren't just alone, there are often 3-4 of them. So each extra hitpoint that an enemy has is actually worth 3-4 extra points of damage. This means that while my mana has been going up a steady 7 or so every level, enemies hitpoints have been going up at a much faster rate. If you can imagine two lines with different linear slopes on a graph, one is eventually going to cross the other. In this case the total amount of damage I could get out of my mana pool started at a value that was higher than the aggregate value of enemy hitpoints in any given encounter, but as time went on, that line, the enemy hitpoints, was increasing at a greater rate than the damage from mana line, and I've just gotten past the point where they cross.

What I need now, is not faster mana growth, I need a spell that will have better damage/mana efficiency than Fire Dart so that even though my mana pool is still the same, the amount of damage per mana will increase, and push that line up vertically, allowing me to again have more damage than the enemies have aggregate hitpoints.

The problem is that the spell efficiency only gets worse! The only bonus to using a spell like Deep Freeze over Fire Darts is that it deals more damage in a shorter number of castings. This isn't helpful when you're running out of mana just trying to kill a single opponent.

So that's it, that's my problem. I'm at a point now where when I sleep and hit a random encounter I get anywhere from 3-4 (maybe more) of those minotaur looking creatures. I can't even do enough damage to one of them with Fire Dart before I die without using haste first, then shooting + backing up. Being forced to use Haste isn't the problem. The real issue is that if I use the haste trick, I rarely can finish one of them off before I'm forced to flee, sleep, and then come back to try to kill another one. This often means I need to do 1.2 sleep cycles back to full mana per minotaur that I kill, with the chance of spawning even more minotaurs while I nap! That means that on a regular minotaur random encounter with 3.5 guys, I have to take 4.2 naps. Not only is this an endless series of grueling repetitions for me as a player, it's extremely boring, and I don't see it getting any better in the near future. Even if I have a higher mana pool, I can't resort to using the less efficent, but quicker, higher level spells as I won't have enough mana. My only solution now, and this is a bad one, is to uber buff myself with haste, dex, bless and attack them with my stupid dagger, but this only barely works, and requires almost as much tedious backing up and then sleeping as spamming firedarts.

So, basically I think all the higher level spells need to have a higher damage/mana ratio. *Reward* me for investing in higher level magics. Don't punish me.

[leonhartt]

Interesting finding... I'm also playing a pure mage too, but i haven't got that many spells yet.

I agree that better spells should have a higher "damage per mana" ratio, if not, what's the point of finding new spells.

[Nihlum]

It doesnt surprise me that the efficency of spells goes down as the spell level (in this case the type of spell) goes up, however you are wrong to compare to the damage to a single target spells with the AOE spells. As they should be less efficent when considered against a single target, and more efficent when used on several.

For example by your numbers you only need to hit 2 targets at once for fireball to be more effective than fire dart, and much much better if you can hit more than 2.

Reading what you said about rest times for mana I suspect your meditation and perception are probably quite low, try to find or buy a zen amulet to use when walking/resting as it helps alot. To boost your damage always wear an evil amulet when actually casting spells. Finally, when you need to rest, dont try to rest to full unless you want to be interrupted (for the exp/drops) do it several short hops of maybe 20 mana each this will drastically cut the chance of you getting interrupted.

[Nihlum]

Interesting finding... I'm also playing a pure mage too, but i haven't got that many spells yet.

I agree that better spells should have a higher "damage per mana" ratio, if not, what's the point of finding new spells.

Simple, utility and time efficiency, the price you pay for that is mana efficiency. The problem here is that time efficiency is not all that important, because haste is so powerful.

[Josia]

It is important to note that since all spells scale in a linear fashion, it's only important to look at the ratio since it never changes.

Your math is good, but the above logic is missing one critical additional component: Maximum damage dealing capability or damage / turn.

Consider level 6 in each of the spells you listed:

Code: Select all

Name         MP/Turn  Dam/Turn (Avg.)
Fire Dart      12        18   
Compress
  Atmosphere   36        45
Deep Freeze    36        39
Fireball       36        33
Supernova      60        21

Supernova is a special case, as it has a HUGE area of effect. As I've never played Elementalist to high enough, I'm not sure about Fireball. In any case, Supernova is just as efficient as Fire Dart but with a much, much better average damage / turn as long as there are more than 5 hostile targets in the target area.

Anyway, the point is that for situations where you're fighting lots of weaker monsters in sequence, level 6 Fire Dart would certainly seem to be your best option due to the MP efficiency. However, the damage caps out pretty quickly (it'll take a lot of hits at 18 damage a turn to kill more powerful baddies). As such, rather than stand there and get creamed by the more powerful enemies as you ping them to death, you'll probably want to break out the less MP efficient but more time efficient spells such as Level 6 Compress Atmosphere.

The above doesn't necessarily invalidate your arguments ~ a more efficient higher level spell may be nice nonetheless ~ but it should illustrate why it is not a foregone conclusion and why the higher level spells are not pointless.

[Josia]

The problem here is that time efficiency is not all that important, because haste is so powerful.

Haste is also a Second-Tier Divination Spell, so is not available to 'pure' Elementalists.

[Jazzepi]

It doesnt surprise me that the efficency of spells goes down as the spell level (in this case the type of spell) goes up, however you are wrong to compare to the damage to a single target spells with the AOE spells. As they should be less efficent when considered against a single target, and more efficent when used on several.

For example by your numbers you only need to hit 2 targets at once for fireball to be more effective than fire dart, and much much better if you can hit more than 2.

Reading what you said about rest times for mana I suspect your meditation and perception are probably quite low, try to find or buy a zen amulet to use when walking/resting as it helps alot. To boost your damage always wear an evil amulet when actually casting spells. Finally, when you need to rest, dont try to rest to full unless you want to be interrupted (for the exp/drops) do it several short hops of maybe 20 mana each this will drastically cut the chance of you getting interrupted.

I actually address exactly this when I said...

"This column can be multiplied by the number of enemies effected assuming that the spell does equal damage to all enemies, but this barely makes up for the low efficiency as fireball doesn't deal full damage to the creatures around the main one it hits, and super nova's efficiency is too low."

What you are saying would be correct if fireball dealt full damage to the squares surrounding initial impact. My experience, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that it deals some fraction of the damage to the center square to the ones around it. So while the damage to mana efficiency appears to be pretty decent, it's actually much lower than it looks.

I am wearing a meditation amulet when I sleep. Here's my current stats, in case you're curious.

str dex endurance spd int wis per con
15 14 20 10 30 24 26 20

Also, for super nova to match Fire Dart in efficiency it has to be hitting 4.3 opponents assuming there is no degradation in damage for long range.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

It is important to note that since all spells scale in a linear fashion, it's only important to look at the ratio since it never changes.

Your math is good, but the above logic is missing one critical additional component: Maximum damage dealing capability or damage / turn.

Consider level 6 in each of the spells you listed:

Code: Select all

Name         MP/Turn  Dam/Turn (Avg.)
Fire Dart      12        18   
Compress
  Atmosphere   36        45
Deep Freeze    36        39
Fireball       36        33
Supernova      60        21

Supernova is a special case, as it has a HUGE area of effect. As I've never played Elementalist to high enough, I'm not sure about Fireball. In any case, Supernova is just as efficient as Fire Dart but with a much, much better average damage / turn as long as there are more than 5 hostile targets in the target area.

Anyway, the point is that for situations where you're fighting lots of weaker monsters in sequence, level 6 Fire Dart would certainly seem to be your best option due to the MP efficiency. However, the damage caps out pretty quickly (it'll take a lot of hits at 18 damage a turn to kill more powerful baddies). As such, rather than stand there and get creamed by the more powerful enemies as you ping them to death, you'll probably want to break out the less MP efficient but more time efficient spells such as Level 6 Compress Atmosphere.

The above doesn't necessarily invalidate your arguments ~ a more efficient higher level spell may be nice nonetheless ~ but it should illustrate why it is not a foregone conclusion and why the higher level spells are not pointless.

I would like to respond by comparing the amount of damge it takes to kill a minotaur creature verus the amount of damage you can deal total, spending all your mana, but I don't have minotaur hit points in front of me. Suffice it to say that from simple experience I can tell you it is impossible to kill a minotaur, spending all your mana on one of the less efficient higher level spells. Since you can't even kill a *single creature* in a 3-4 creature random encounter spawn without running away and resting by using the less mana efficient spells, one can not argue that it is worth it to trade efficiency for a higher damage per turn output when you're simply going to run out of mana when the creature is about halfway to 2/3 dead. At least if you use haste, and then use a bunch of the Fire Darts instead of cold blast or compress atmo you're going to be much more effective at actually dealing enough damage to them.

If someone knows the minotaur hitpoints, and could post it that would be a great help.

Also, in reguards to Supernova. This spell is almost useless in the scenario I was talking about. 3-4 high hitpoint creatures take a relatively small amount of damage to all of them. What happens is when you go to sleep, they gain some of that back. IF you're single target nuking, that creature gains 1/3 or 1/4 of what all creatures in that pack would gain back, meaning the aggregate gain is much higher. This only further reinforces the fact that Fire Dart is much, much more efficient than either Nova or Fireball if you can't kill off the creatures right away.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Interesting finding... I'm also playing a pure mage too, but i haven't got that many spells yet.

I agree that better spells should have a higher "damage per mana" ratio, if not, what's the point of finding new spells.

Simple, utility and time efficiency, the price you pay for that is mana efficiency. The problem here is that time efficiency is not all that important, because haste is so powerful.

That's basically the idea. The problem is that compress atmo, and the ice blast spell offer no utility beyond their damage. I do believe that atmo may be unresistable, which is a tick in its favor, but not a big enough one to make it worth casting.

Jazepi

[Loriac]

I am wearing a meditation amulet when I sleep. Here's my current stats, in case you're curious.

str dex endurance spd int wis per con
15 14 20 10 30 24 26 20

Also, for super nova to match Fire Dart in efficiency it has to be hitting 4.3 opponents assuming there is no degradation in damage for long range.

Jazzepi

What is your meditation skill? If I'm reading your post correctly, you don't wear the meditation amulet normally, only when camping? Bascially, for a pure caster you need to have meditation + per = 38+ to get the 1/3 mana recharge. The benefit of this level of recharge cannot be underestimated, and really does reduce downtime.

Why are int and wis so high? For a pure caster, I would actually pump up perception in preference to either, particularly wis. From what I've seen, max int or wis requirement is 20 to learn spells, and this can be achieved using items as well.

I have to say I'm in the camp that thinks the higher spells are fine. As others have pointed out, you gain damage per time at higher levels, not mana efficiency. The way you get mana efficieny in this game, as far as I can tell, is through the meditation skill / recharge rate; i.e. if you are regaining mana at 1/3, you have a lot more to spend over a given time than if you are regaining at say 1/12.

The other thing that is quite easy to obtain is a 15 alchemy skill (you only need to invest 2 level up skill points to get this, if you get the full training, use the skill book, and use 2 brewmaster rings). Once you have this, you can easily stockpile mana III potions to restore 100mana at a time.

If anything, high level mages in this game are overpowered from what I've seen; magic replicates every other skill you can buy (including armor skills via stoneskin), and can also be used to enhance str and dex attributes. Its also not hard to get high skill levels in both elemental and divination (basically, don't build up your 'minor' skill until Blackwater, and use the trainer to get the first 5 skill levels, saving a total of 7 level up points).

[Nihlum]

<snip?

I actually address exactly this when I said...

"This column can be multiplied by the number of enemies effected assuming that the spell does equal damage to all enemies, but this barely makes up for the low efficiency as fireball doesn't deal full damage to the creatures around the main one it hits, and super nova's efficiency is too low."

What you are saying would be correct if fireball dealt full damage to the squares surrounding initial impact. My experience, and perhaps I'm wrong, is that it deals some fraction of the damage to the center square to the ones around it. So while the damage to mana efficiency appears to be pretty decent, it's actually much lower than it looks.

I am wearing a meditation amulet when I sleep. Here's my current stats, in case you're curious.

str dex endurance spd int wis per con
15 14 20 10 30 24 26 20

Also, for super nova to match Fire Dart in efficiency it has to be hitting 4.3 opponents assuming there is no degradation in damage for long range.

Jazzepi

My bad, I must have glossed over that bit in your orignal post, I did a little bit of checking, the concussion damage seems to be 3/4 original damage rounded down * number of secondary targets. However that still means hitting 2 targets at once is (just slightly) better than firedart, and significantly better for more targets (just dont try it at point blank).

[Jazzepi]

I am wearing a meditation amulet when I sleep. Here's my current stats, in case you're curious.

str dex endurance spd int wis per con
15 14 20 10 30 24 26 20

Also, for super nova to match Fire Dart in efficiency it has to be hitting 4.3 opponents assuming there is no degradation in damage for long range.

Jazzepi

I have to say I'm in the camp that thinks the higher spells are fine. As others have pointed out, you gain damage per time at higher levels, not mana efficiency. The way you get mana efficieny in this game, as far as I can tell, is through the meditation skill / recharge rate; i.e. if you are regaining mana at 1/3, you have a lot more to spend over a given time than if you are regaining at say 1/12.

I actually wear the amulet all the time. I just wanted to clarify that I have it on while I sleep. I would content that even 1/3 mana regen isn't going to be enough to really matter. To cast level 6 fire dart you need 12 mana. 12 mana takes 36 turns. So, effectively, if you have 1/3 mana regen during a fight that lasts 36 turns you get one single extra casting of Fire dart at level 6.

Jazzepi

[Claw]

Ah, a kindred mind. I'm not that far in my progression yet, but I've already noticed the same. I planned on bringing this up once I got through the game and have my suspicions confirmed.

For example by your numbers you only need to hit 2 targets at once for fireball to be more effective than fire dart, and much much better if you can hit more than 2.

Except only the primary target recieves full damage. Secondary targets seem to take about half the damage in my experience, so it's slightly worse than Fire Dart against two targets and against three it may actually be more efficient than Fire Dart. Still not great in my opinion.

Reading what you said about rest times for mana I suspect your meditation and perception are probably quite low, try to find or buy a zen amulet to use when walking/resting as it helps alot. To boost your damage always wear an evil amulet when actually casting spells.

I think you missed the point of his post. If he uses up all his mana without even finishing a single enounter, what use is his meditation skill? Do you propose he walk around aimlessly while his mana regenerates?
The point is he should be able to deal with the encounter in the first place.

Finally, when you need to rest, dont try to rest to full unless you want to be interrupted (for the exp/drops) do it several short hops of maybe 20 mana each this will drastically cut the chance of you getting interrupted.

Yay, metagaming4fun!

Why are int and wis so high? For a pure caster, I would actually pump up perception in preference to either, particularly wis.

Well, the stat description says Int and Wis both contribute to extra mana on level up, while the Per description is somewhat ambiguous.
My assumption is that Int and Wis both give +1 mana per 5 points while Per gives +1 per 10 points.

The way you get mana efficieny in this game, as far as I can tell, is through the meditation skill / recharge rate; i.e. if you are regaining mana at 1/3, you have a lot more to spend over a given time than if you are regaining at say 1/12.

That only works in the long run, i.e. between encounters. That wasn't the issue.

The other thing that is quite easy to obtain is a 15 alchemy skill (you only need to invest 2 level up skill points to get this, if you get the full training, use the skill book, and use 2 brewmaster rings). Once you have this, you can easily stockpile mana III potions to restore 100mana at a time.

Well, you have a point there. But I'm not a big fan of metagaming. Oh, I shouldn't have taken alchemy during creation. Oh, I shouldn't have increased my alchemy skill manually. Oh, I need that magic item and find that book.

[Nihlum]

Reading what you said about rest times for mana I suspect your meditation and perception are probably quite low, try to find or buy a zen amulet to use when walking/resting as it helps alot. To boost your damage always wear an evil amulet when actually casting spells.

I think you missed the point of his post. If he uses up all his mana without even finishing a single enounter, what use is his meditation skill? Do you propose he walk around aimlessly while his mana regenerates?
The point is he should be able to deal with the encounter in the first place.

That part was about the length of the rest time cycle he said he needed to recharge mana, it's very long, and the longer they are the more likely encounters are, which he complained about.

Finally, when you need to rest, dont try to rest to full unless you want to be interrupted (for the exp/drops) do it several short hops of maybe 20 mana each this will drastically cut the chance of you getting interrupted.

Yay, metagaming4fun!

Well wait until you get to the point when every time you need to recharge you get ambushed by 5 monsters, draining all your gains and possibly making you use potions as well. Nor is it metagaming, if you were in enemy territory, would you sleep for 24 hours? Or would you take short breaks and keep moving so you don't get caught?

The other thing that is quite easy to obtain is a 15 alchemy skill (you only need to invest 2 level up skill points to get this, if you get the full training, use the skill book, and use 2 brewmaster rings). Once you have this, you can easily stockpile mana III potions to restore 100mana at a time.

Well, you have a point there. But I'm not a big fan of metagaming. Oh, I shouldn't have taken alchemy during creation. Oh, I shouldn't have increased my alchemy skill manually. Oh, I need that magic item and find that book.

Then don't do it, I took alchemy at the start and it's cost me skill points as a result. Anyhow you only need 10 alchemy to make teir 3 healing/mana potions.

I did some testing with compression sphere, it does seem to be unresistable which is certainly very helpful at times (poltergeists) and it hits (independently of the first hit) any monster on an adjacent square, making it the best spell to use when you have 2+ targets next to each other by along way.

I also encounted the taurus (mintaurs) they are a pain thanks to their high HP and haste is basically needed to fight them, using haste and T3 or T4 dart of fire (to reduce the mana loss from resists) or compression you should be able to kill at least one or possibly 2 before you need to camp or use potions.

[Loriac]

Perhaps to address the OP's concerns re: mana efficiency, it strikes me that this game probably isn't balanced for a 'pure' caster if by a pure caster you play the character so he doesn't use weapons, doesn't use armor, and doesn't use skills apart from magic.

Because, if it was balanced for this type of character, it would be completely unbalanced for any character that made full use of their abilities as a mage in this game.

E.g. I play a mage character in this game who uses both elemental and divine magic. However, he also uses heavy armor (I don't subscribe to the wizards are old men in robes viewpoint; I see my character as a battlemage who uses swords and magic together), and swords, and bows. Whilst (at say 10th level) the magic skills are around 20, the sword and bow skills are at 10 or so, and the support skills are where they need to be. Meanwhile, perception is 30 and meditation is 8, i.e. he recharges mana at 1/3. This character can either buff and fight, or use arrows, or throw spells around. If only throwing spells around allowed me to defeat any encounter, then this character would be completely unbalanced. As it is, he uses all his skills together to defeat enemies without too much trouble.

Possibly a way to get a 'pure' mage would be to have usage restrictions of some kind in game, so that to access the most powerful spells required you to wear no armor (heavy or light) and to have nothing in either hand (along with a time requirement to swap items or armor in and out). I don't know if this is possible in this game's engine, and to be completely honest its not particularly desirable to me. However, I don't see any other way to accommodate the OP's desire to play a pure 'glass cannon' mage with the reality of the game that doesn't penalise armor or weapons usage for characters.