Spell Damage Efficency - Math - Spell spoilers

[Jazzepi]

Perhaps to address the OP's concerns re: mana efficiency, it strikes me that this game probably isn't balanced for a 'pure' caster if by a pure caster you play the character so he doesn't use weapons, doesn't use armor, and doesn't use skills apart from magic.

Because, if it was balanced for this type of character, it would be completely unbalanced for any character that made full use of their abilities as a mage in this game.

E.g. I play a mage character in this game who uses both elemental and divine magic. However, he also uses heavy armor (I don't subscribe to the wizards are old men in robes viewpoint; I see my character as a battlemage who uses swords and magic together), and swords, and bows. Whilst (at say 10th level) the magic skills are around 20, the sword and bow skills are at 10 or so, and the support skills are where they need to be. Meanwhile, perception is 30 and meditation is 8, i.e. he recharges mana at 1/3. This character can either buff and fight, or use arrows, or throw spells around. If only throwing spells around allowed me to defeat any encounter, then this character would be completely unbalanced. As it is, he uses all his skills together to defeat enemies without too much trouble.

Possibly a way to get a 'pure' mage would be to have usage restrictions of some kind in game, so that to access the most powerful spells required you to wear no armor (heavy or light) and to have nothing in either hand (along with a time requirement to swap items or armor in and out). I don't know if this is possible in this game's engine, and to be completely honest its not particularly desirable to me. However, I don't see any other way to accommodate the OP's desire to play a pure 'glass cannon' mage with the reality of the game that doesn't penalise armor or weapons usage for characters.

I'm curious what the size of your mana pool is at the moment. I would also like to say that you're probably spending a great deal of mana buffing yourself for meele combat. That's all well and good, but it's not what I want to do with my character.

My guess, and this may or may not be true, is that you have a mana pool that is significantly smaller than the one my current character has. It's probably good enough to buff, cast some heals, and maybe throw a nuke or two. But it would be insufficient to mow down multiple high level creatures with direct damage nukes alone since the character I'm currently playing can rarely take down a single minotaur with all of his available mana (136 points). Assuming that your mana pool is 3/4s or 1/2 this size, I doubt that increasing the mana efficiency of high level nukes would affect your character at all, since he would be unable to rely on them to finish entire encounters. It may provide yet another option to what should be a versatile character build, but it would hardly allow a character who has split their points between warrior and caster traits to slip into the role of a pure nuking mage.

So no, I don't think the game is balanced for a proper glass cannon mage, but I think it should be, and I don't think that it would take much to do it. Leave the spells that are there in place, but make some of the higher level ones more efficient.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

The point is he should be able to deal with the encounter in the first place.

That part was about the length of the rest time cycle he said he needed to recharge mana, it's very long, and the longer they are the more likely encounters are, which he complained about.

Actually, my character's perception is 26 + 8 meditation make the sleep cycles very short. I takes just under 9 hours, in game, to recharge from 0 to 136. My problem isn't with the length of time it takes to get back that mana via resting. My problem is the fact is that I can't even *come close* to managing a single, normal, random encounter of 3-4 minotaurs through nukes. I can rarely kill a single minotaur with each rest cycle, which I find unacceptable.

Jazzepi

[Loriac]

I'm curious what the size of your mana pool is at the moment. I would also like to say that you're probably spending a great deal of mana buffing yourself for meele combat. That's all well and good, but it's not what I want to do with my character.

My guess, and this may or may not be true, is that you have a mana pool that is significantly smaller than the one my current character has. It's probably good enough to buff, cast some heals, and maybe throw a nuke or two. But it would be insufficient to mow down multiple high level creatures with direct damage nukes alone since the character I'm currently playing can rarely take down a single minotaur with all of his available mana (136 points). Assuming that your mana pool is 3/4s or 1/2 this size, I doubt that increasing the mana efficiency of high level nukes would affect your character at all, since he would be unable to rely on them to finish entire encounters. It may provide yet another option to what should be a versatile character build, but it would hardly allow a character who has split their points between warrior and caster traits to slip into the role of a pure nuking mage.

So no, I don't think the game is balanced for a proper glass cannon mage, but I think it should be, and I don't think that it would take much to do it. Leave the spells that are there in place, but make some of the higher level ones more efficient.

Jazzepi

Mana pool is about 110 at level 9, with no +mana items. This is due to starting with Perception around 20, so a starting pool of 50 or so. I maxed out Perception by level 5, i.e. 30 perception at that level. Therefore getting 8 mana per level (9 per level from now onwards, as int has hit 20 now). By the late game, say level 15, this character will have 150 mana without items. I'm guessing thats higher than your character's mana pool? Note that in this game, your best best at the start if going pure mage is to put all 15 starting points into Perception; don't touch anything else. This is because you start the game with 2xPerception + 1xIntelligence as your starting mana pool.

Also note that this character gets 5 hp per level, and started with 60 hp - I rerolled until I got 14's in Str, End, and Per which allowed me to start with 20 in str and end, and get to 20 in per by level 2. Therefore, he has more than enough hp to take a beating as well.

As its a balanced character, I am aiming to have most stats in the 15 to 20 range by this time, except for Perception which will be 30. Str, End, and Int will all be 20.

Based on an earlier point, its worthwhile reiterating that for a mage, wis does nothing except provide disease resistance. Int does almost nothing, except qualify you for spells (+1 mana per level for every 10 ranks in it is not that great). Perception gives +1 mana per 5 ranks, making it the stat to pump.

Also, you need to raise you perception and meditation by a total of 4 ranks to get to the 1/3 mana recharge if you have per 26 and med 8. As its stands, you'll be getting recharge at about 1/6 or 1/7, which is quite slow.

[Jazzepi]

I'm curious what the size of your mana pool is at the moment. I would also like to say that you're probably spending a great deal of mana buffing yourself for meele combat. That's all well and good, but it's not what I want to do with my character.

My guess, and this may or may not be true, is that you have a mana pool that is significantly smaller than the one my current character has. It's probably good enough to buff, cast some heals, and maybe throw a nuke or two. But it would be insufficient to mow down multiple high level creatures with direct damage nukes alone since the character I'm currently playing can rarely take down a single minotaur with all of his available mana (136 points). Assuming that your mana pool is 3/4s or 1/2 this size, I doubt that increasing the mana efficiency of high level nukes would affect your character at all, since he would be unable to rely on them to finish entire encounters. It may provide yet another option to what should be a versatile character build, but it would hardly allow a character who has split their points between warrior and caster traits to slip into the role of a pure nuking mage.

So no, I don't think the game is balanced for a proper glass cannon mage, but I think it should be, and I don't think that it would take much to do it. Leave the spells that are there in place, but make some of the higher level ones more efficient.

Jazzepi

Mana pool is about 110 at level 9, with no +mana items. This is due to starting with Perception around 20, so a starting pool of 50 or so. I maxed out Perception by level 5, i.e. 30 perception at that level. Therefore getting 8 mana per level (9 per level from now onwards, as int has hit 20 now). By the late game, say level 15, this character will have 150 mana without items. I'm guessing thats higher than your character's mana pool? Note that in this game, your best best at the start if going pure mage is to put all 15 starting points into Perception; don't touch anything else. This is because you start the game with 2xPerception + 1xIntelligence as your starting mana pool.

Also note that this character gets 5 hp per level, and started with 60 hp - I rerolled until I got 14's in Str, End, and Per which allowed me to start with 20 in str and end, and get to 20 in per by level 2. Therefore, he has more than enough hp to take a beating as well.

As its a balanced character, I am aiming to have most stats in the 15 to 20 range by this time, except for Perception which will be 30. Str, End, and Int will all be 20.

Based on an earlier point, its worthwhile reiterating that for a mage, wis does nothing except provide disease resistance. Int does almost nothing, except qualify you for spells (+1 mana per level for every 10 ranks in it is not that great). Perception gives +1 mana per 5 ranks, making it the stat to pump.

Also, you need to raise you perception and meditation by a total of 4 ranks to get to the 1/3 mana recharge if you have per 26 and med 8. As its stands, you'll be getting recharge at about 1/6 or 1/7, which is quite slow.

None of this has anything to do with my original point. I built my character without an deep understanding of game mechanics, not to min-max. I think the hitpoints/mana progression based on the stat at the time of level up is silly. D&D 3rd edition did it better with con bonuses adding retroactively.

Jazzepi

[Madmarcus]

Actually, my character's perception is 26 + 8 meditation make the sleep cycles very short. I takes just under 9 hours, in game, to recharge from 0 to 136. My problem isn't with the length of time it takes to get back that mana via resting. My problem is the fact is that I can't even *come close* to managing a single, normal, random encounter of 3-4 minotaurs through nukes. I can rarely kill a single minotaur with each rest cycle, which I find unacceptable.

Jazzepi

Perhaps you just have too high of an expectation? My character has found all of the random encounters to be difficult. Ever since they became 3 thugs I've found that random encounters generally leave me right back at the condition I was in before I rested. I'm finding it to be an interesting challenge that adds a lot to the game.

That said, perhaps there needs to be an increase in spell damage for higher Int characters.

[Loriac]

None of this has anything to do with my original point. I built my character without an deep understanding of game mechanics, not to min-max. I think the hitpoints/mana progression based on the stat at the time of level up is silly. D&D 3rd edition did it better with con bonuses adding retroactively.

Jazzepi

Your original post was saying that pure casters can't beat encounters in this game because higher level spells are not mana efficient. As pointed out in this thread, higher level spells in this game are more time-efficient rather than mana efficient.

To play an effective pure caster in most rpgs, you have to understand the mechanics. If your point is that you built your character sub-optimally, therefore he can't fight encounters then fine, I agree.

If your point is that any pure caster build is flawed because this game doesn't support mana efficient high level spells, then I respectfully disagree.

After reconsidering what a pure build would look like, I come to the conclusion that a nuke mage would start with 30 perception [base 14, +2 for whichever race gives +2 percetion, +15 initial points] and say 12 intelligence. This gives 74 mana pool right off the bat. You would then pump perception and have an additional 10 or so per level for 15 levels lets say. This is over 225 mana at L16. If this isn't sufficient (also, you can throw in some + mana items) then I don't know what would be.

This is an 'old-school' rpg. I'm sorry to say this, but that means that you need to understand the mechanics of the game well. If you don't, and your character can't win encounters, then you shouldn't necessarily blame the mechanics.

[Jazzepi]

None of this has anything to do with my original point. I built my character without an deep understanding of game mechanics, not to min-max. I think the hitpoints/mana progression based on the stat at the time of level up is silly. D&D 3rd edition did it better with con bonuses adding retroactively.

Jazzepi

Your original post was saying that pure casters can't beat encounters in this game because higher level spells are not mana efficient. As pointed out in this thread, higher level spells in this game are more time-efficient rather than mana efficient.

To play an effective pure caster in most rpgs, you have to understand the mechanics. If your point is that you built your character sub-optimally, therefore he can't fight encounters then fine, I agree.

If your point is that any pure caster build is flawed because this game doesn't support mana efficient high level spells, then I respectfully disagree.

After reconsidering what a pure build would look like, I come to the conclusion that a nuke mage would start with 30 perception [base 14, +2 for whichever race gives +2 percetion, +15 initial points] and say 12 intelligence. This gives 74 mana pool right off the bat. You would then pump perception and have an additional 10 or so per level for 15 levels lets say. This is over 225 mana at L16. If this isn't sufficient (also, you can throw in some + mana items) then I don't know what would be.

This is an 'old-school' rpg. I'm sorry to say this, but that means that you need to understand the mechanics of the game well. If you don't, and your character can't win encounters, then you shouldn't necessarily blame the mechanics.

Games shouldn't require min-maxing just to make the encounters palatable. With a mana pool that size, you could probably take down two minotaurs using haste + fire dart. Then you'd have to run away and hide. I don't see how you think it's reasonable that, when you min-max to get the absolute best results possible, you still can only finish off the encounter halfway. Madmarcus mentioned in the post before hand how "My character has found all of the random encounters to be difficult. Ever since they became 3 thugs I've found that random encounters generally leave me right back at the condition I was in before I rested." Even if you did what you're talking about, a rather extreme example, these random encounters would not "leave me right back at the condition I was in before I rested." They would infact still require 1-2 restings just to beat a single one.

Jazzepi

[Kyote]

Mate, if you use Fortified mana potions you use half your mana per spell for it's duration. This should allow you to take out those higher HP critters.

[Madmarcus]

I wasn't clear in my statement.

At basically all points in the game the "random" encounters while sleeping were able to do enough damage that sleeping was counter productive. At the minimum I would lose some hit points and be back to the state I was in prior to resting. At the worse, actually most of the time, I had to also spend arrows or potions defeating them and was thus worse off then before camping. Lesson learned, do not camp in the wilds. It is almost always better to fast travel to the A town and sleep in the inn.

I see this as a design decision. Camping is available but its not going to be a simple matter of resting for days on end. This fits with the game world, at least in my opinion, and doesn't destroy the gameplay. What it does do is force you to rethink the fight/camp/fight/camp model that some other games have.

[Benedict]

This means that while my mana has been going up a steady 7 or so every level, enemies hitpoints have been going up at a much faster rate.

I am wearing a meditation amulet when I sleep. Here's my current stats, in case you're curious.

str dex endurance spd int wis per con
15 14 20 10 30 24 26 20

How does the mana gain per level work? I think I've got intelligence of 20 and perception of 30 and I see to be getting about 9 per level at around level 3 / 4, does the amount per level decrease for higher levels?

[Loriac]

How does the mana gain per level work? I think I've got intelligence of 20 and perception of 30 and I see to be getting about 9 per level at around level 3 / 4, does the amount per level decrease for higher levels?

It stays at +9 if you keep your stats where they are now. Every 10 Int above 10 seems to add +1 on level up whilst every 5 Per above 10 adds +1 as well. The base gain seems to be 4 mana, hence your +9 per level. To maximise mana, you should raise Perception as it gives maximum returns on investment.

I think if you're a healer, Wis replaces Int (however I haven't ever tried a healer).

[Benedict]

How does the mana gain per level work? I think I've got intelligence of 20 and perception of 30 and I see to be getting about 9 per level at around level 3 / 4, does the amount per level decrease for higher levels?

It stays at +9 if you keep your stats where they are now. Every 10 Int above 10 seems to add +1 on level up whilst every 5 Per above 10 adds +1 as well. The base gain seems to be 4 mana, hence your +9 per level. To maximise mana, you should raise Perception as it gives maximum returns on investment.

I think if you're a healer, Wis replaces Int (however I haven't ever tried a healer).

So I'd need to invest another 10 attribute points to get any better mana gain per level?

I think I'm probably best off chucking the next few levels into endurance then and getting some decent hit points.

[Josia]

How does the mana gain per level work? I think I've got intelligence of 20 and perception of 30 and I see to be getting about 9 per level at around level 3 / 4, does the amount per level decrease for higher levels?

So I'd need to invest another 10 attribute points to get any better mana gain per level?

I think I'm probably best off chucking the next few levels into endurance then and getting some decent hit points.

No, increasing Perception to 35 should increase your mana / level to 10.

[leonhartt]

Guys, to learn new and more powerful spells, do i need to increase my "INT" points, or is it "Elemental skill" only?

It seems to me that adding "Perception" is the way to go since it gives more mana.

[Josia]

Guys, to learn new and more powerful spells, do i need to increase my "INT" points, or is it "Elemental skill" only?

It seems to me that adding "Perception" is the way to go since it gives more mana.

There are minimums for both the appropriate Arcane skill and the appropriate associated stat. However, once you have reached the appropriate minimums, then generally Perception is the better bet.

There are additional benefits to Wisdom and Intelligence (e.g. resistances), but the general consensus is that the greater MP benefit of Perception trumps the additional effects of the alternate mental stats.