FEEDBACK - almost enjoyed it.

[macdude22]

The game isn't low tech, it uses modern OpenGL technologies, which allows the particle effects and touches in the game, as well as the rather nice lighting system. While the game style is old-school the technology behind it is decidedly "new-school".

One of the main benefits of using a higher level development environment is that in this case it allows easy portability to multiple platforms. You code once in the development environment and all the nitty gritty calls to the operating system are taken care of for you. This no doubt accounts for a performance decrease, there is only so much optimization to be done. Without this type of environment it's doubtful the game would be available on multiple platforms.

I've ran the game on a 1.5ghz powerbook and didn't find it particularly troublesome.

[realmzmaster]

The programming language is Blitz Max developed by Blitz Research. On the Macintosh, if I am not wrong, Blitz Max uses Open GL to render graphics. The optimization would have to be in the language itself. Since Eschalon uses the graphic commands built into the language, there is no way for BW to change how Blitz Max calls Open GL. Blitz Max defaults to Direct X on Windows machines. Basically I suspect that Direct X is faster at rendering the graphics in this case. I suspect that the calls Blitz Max makes to Open GL are not as optimized as they could be. But, BW has no control over that. I sure he has reported that concern to Blitz Research.

Why use Blitz Max? Because it is available for all three platforms, which greatly speeds up development work and it is a good 2D language.(Blitz Max is a BASIC derivative ( I have used Blitz Basic which is its 3D older brother ). Unfortunately Blitz Max may not perform exactly the same on all three platforms (my guess) . The problem could be inherrent in the language and not the game. Using a high level language has its trade-offs. Most other languages are not as fast C++ except for assembly and machine languages. But, those three languages can be a pain in the ass to program. Especially assembly and machine, which also are processor dependent. The game could have been coded in C++ which is available for all three platforms. But, it also may have taken longer to produce. Just the musings of someone old enough to have used punch cards to program COBOL on mainframes.

[BasiliskWrangler]

Yep and yep.

Blitz is very high-level language, far above the archaic OpenGL API layer. It's actually extremely fast in many situations- tests have shown it's very close to C++ for general purpose computational tasks. When it comes to OpenGL and DirectX, it's really rather fast as well- it's just not perfect. If you want perfect you have to go deep- talk directly to the API layer or even to the hardware driver itself. Once you do that, however, you rapidly expand your development time and limit your code compatibility with other platforms and hardware. And what would that gain us? Perhaps a handful of additional customers with very low-end machines who could then play the game on their +5 year old computers. Does the few extra sales justify the 6-12 month additional development time? I'm sorry, but it doesn't.

[Opunaesala]

One: there are system requirements for all applications. Users check them out to see if they can run the application at all. If they are met, as with me and my Mac, I expect a smooth performance for my money.

No, if you meet system requirements you should expect it to play, you shouldn't it to play smoothly. Hence them being called minimum requirements most of the time. If you have a system higher than that then you should expect it to run smoothly.

Though it is most certainly a problem on your end, and you still haven't enlightened us to what you are running it on stat wise.

[realmzmaster]

The minimum system requirements show you the bottomline machine that can run the game. It does not mean that it will run smoothly or even well. Maybe what you should do BW is have a recommended system specification at which the game will run relatively smoothly. I read PC Gamer and Games for Windows. They have minimum and recommended system specifications. The minimum means the game will run, but not well or smoothly. The recommended specification means that the game will run well.

For example, I played Spellforce on a PC running at 1.8 GHz with 512MB and a decent video card. These were the bare minimum specifications. The game ran like crap. I bought a 3 GHZ, 7800 Geforce, with 1 GB Ram and it runs like a top. On the box it stated the minimum spec and then the recommended specs. Do not expect optimal perforance at the minimum specs. It will not happen, you will be diappointed.

[single player]

So, to sum up: A high-level language that works for all major OS is being used to produce a game that is graphically as simple as Diablo 1 and the Baldur's Gate games were some 8 or 9 years ago - with a performance that is very poor for 1 out of 3 users, according to the poll of this post and the one posted a bit later.

Thank you, Basilisk Wrangler, for spelling out - finally! - that you made a legitimate, strategic decision as an indie developer to speed up work at the expense of quality, evidently to maximise your commercial benefits. You have every right to adopt such a stance.

I also might have accepted an explanation like: "We're a small outfit trying to start out, so bear with us if some things are buggy. We're sorry and we hope to get it right with time."

Only that you don't plan to get it right. Clearly, as you said yourself, you are willing to forsake my patronage. Nothing personal, of course, just the usual pull and tug of market forces, I understand.

Fair enough. Pity, you had something going there and I would've liked to see how it goes on. But you don't want me to. Farewell.

[JOG]

So, to sum up: A high-level language that works for all major OS is being used to produce a game that is graphically as simple as Diablo 1 and the Baldur's Gate games were some 8 or 9 years ago

No it isn't as simple, it has lighting it has particle effects, technically it's about 2 years old. It's presentation is that of old-school top-down RPGs yes, that is what we wanted and what BW intended.

with a performance that is very poor for 1 out of 3 users, according to the poll of this post and the one posted a bit later.

Your poll is biased as there is no option to say "Movement *could* be faster but it's not that much of an issue."

Thank you, Basilisk Wrangler, for spelling out - finally! - that you made a legitimate, strategic decision as an indie developer to speed up work at the expense of quality, evidently to maximise your commercial benefits. You have every right to adopt such a stance.

There is a reason why 10 years ago similar games required a development team of 20-30 persons, and the reason is not that today's programmers are so much better. There simply were no tools like Blitz, and computers weren't fast enough to handle tools like Blitz. Of course a custom-made engine written in a low-level language is faster than an allround tool that integrates graphic-access directly into in a BASIC dialect. But a custom-made engine needs a lot more work and knowledge, and is much more prone to bugs. Doing work, gaining knowledge and searching bugs all require the same thing: time, and time *is* money.

Believe it or not, but I heard rumors that Basilisk Wrangler actually is a mammal, other than reptiles, he doesn't have the luxury of being in need of food just once in a few months. Due to their lavish metabolism BW and his family have to eat consistently - ideally at least once per day. The time he spends making games needs to be worthwhile or he would starve to dead without being able to finish the Eschalon saga.

Only that you don't plan to get it right. Clearly, as you said yourself, you are willing to forsake my patronage. Nothing personal, of course, just the usual pull and tug of market forces, I understand.

Yes, BW's commercial interests are really obvious, making such a mass-market oriented game with graphics designed to appeal to the ADD crowd perfectly. On top of that he even dares to spend a few hours per day in the forums for that travesty he calls support. Not even on the weekends does he leave us alone here, I'm really mad, this is not the kind of support I'm used to get from the gaming industry...

Shame on you, BW! Shame on you!!

[Necromis]

plus the poll is slanted because of how it can be misunderstood. Your complaint is childish. Your poll says moving slow to which most people are assuming this is on that walk/run argument. They vote, and then read more to come to the understanding that you are talking about system slow not movement slow. Stop complaining. Your computer is a yugo and you are trying to have it perform like a Porshe, it ain't gonna happen.

[macdude22]

We used to have a yugo............Might as well have driven my cat to school. Would have been about as reliable.

[single player]

And tempers are flaring...
Yes guys, my poll was misunderstandable. The moving slowly-bit can be mistaken for the run-walk debate. Wasn't aware of that, I'll cry myself into sleep over it tonight. It's a performance issue.

Necromis, your computer is bigger than mine? Good for you. Be proud.

As I said, Basilisk Games is fully entitled to decide what sort of programming language to use. The system requirements for Macintosh, which are not specified as minimal or recommended, have been set so low that some buyers like me get a defective product... ...and are being told that this is only because their computer is crap and that it's entirely their fault. And when they point out that this odd little underachievement could kill the entire project - as it rightfully should, I'm coming to believe - they get cordially invited to quit whining.

I'm not whining. I feel far more amused than bitter. I can cope with statements like: "We made a business decision to ignore the needs of some users with older PCs in the best interest of everybody else. It was either that or not making the game at all, due to our limited resources and budget constraints." But I don't get these straight answers. Instead, I get lenghty descriptions of something called Blitz - something I cannot be bothered with at all, I assure you - and why it is my own personal failure to expect an app to run smoothly when I meet and even execeed the announced system requirements. Silly me!

I see it it now! I only imagined that there was a problem... A serious and deadly threat to this wonderful endeavour, so rich with passion and dedication, endless working hours and late-night pizza deliveries... But it was just a bad dream, a wickedly bad dream about a lurking trap that could blow everything into bits... Thanks, guys, you made me see the light. Your loving care showed me that there was no problem... that I was the problem, and that there is nothing to be afraid of... Oh, I feel so shabby. It's all... (sniff)... my fault! Can you... (choke)... forgive me?

[Necromis]

wow, I guess there is someone with hurt feelings. However, that would not be myself. Basically the end result of this, beyond your sarcasim, is that Book I is fine. System requirments are just that. What you need to run an application. Look at Vista operating system. It says you can run it with .5 gig of ram. Really slow, though. Vista will work on that, but will take forever to do anything, will work ok with 1 gig, and will fly like XP with 2 gigs. For you to pour out such sarcasim and say a game is simple, especially when you admit you know no programming, is truely the act of a childish person. I am not saying this with any anger, just pointing out the facts of your actions. Take two cars, give one a 4 cylinder, and one a 8 cylinder engine, see which one goes faster and performs better. Obviously the one with the better engine. No one is saying your computer sucks. Just that it is running a 4 cyclinder engine and trying to carry an 8 cylinder body. If you take people disagreeing with you and pointing out the flaws in your argument the wrong way, and take offense to it, that is your problem, and not ours. So if you leave, leave with no hard feelings and understand debate is the stuff of life.

[Josia]

But I don't get these straight answers. Instead, I get lenghty descriptions of something called Blitz - something I cannot be bothered with at all, I assure you - and why it is my own personal failure to expect an app to run smoothly when I meet and even execeed the announced system requirements. Silly me!

You just asked the wrong question. Please review this thread for a much more civil version of this very same issue.

It includes such gems as:

Hi ioquatix- thanks for the suggestion. We are looking into optimization right now and hopefully can improve the engine for the next game.

and

Certainly! I would very much like to use whatever suggestion Samuel (or anyone else) sends my way...
Regardless, we will do what we can to speed the engine up, but major changes to the engine may not make it into Book I. They are more likely to be a Book II feature.

This conversation really didn't need to get to this point. Whether or not you intended it, it comes across like you have a strong sense of entitlement which is off-putting to a lot of folks, especially those who are 'coders' and/or have a better understanding of the technical issues behind your complaints.

End result is that BW does care about your business and that of other users like you (such as flinch13 and ioquatix), however there are technical limitations that make it difficult. Nonetheless, he has stated he'll try to improve what he feasibly can at least for Book II if not Book I.

[acoustibop]

single player, one thing puzzles me about your complaint in this thread. If I'm not mistaken, the crux of your complaint is that, although your computer meets or exceeds Eschalon: Book 1's requirements, the game performs very badly on your computer.

However, the only description of your machine that I can find in this thread is

my PC (macintosh G4, OS 10.4).

I'm not too familiar with Macs, so I did a quick search for G4 specs and found this page. As far as I can see, it quotes processor speeds as between 350 and 733MHz, except for dual processors, which are 450 to 533MHz for G4s.

Looking at the Eschalon: Book 1 purchase page, the minimum specs include a 1.8GHz processor. Now, as I understand it, Macs use the processor considerably more effectively than many other OSs, but nevertheless, it seems to me that there's a considerable shortfall between the minimum stated requirement and your processor speed.

I may be completely wrong: I know very little about Macs. Could you perhaps state the actual specifications of the machine you're having speed problems with?

[kwokkie]

The system requirements for Macintosh, which are not specified as minimal or recommended, have been set so low that some buyers like me get a defective product... ...and are being told that this is only because their computer is crap and that it's entirely their fault. And when they point out that this odd little underachievement could kill the entire project - as it rightfully should, I'm coming to believe - they get cordially invited to quit whining.

You do realize that there is a demo available for you to try out before you buy, right?

[Rune_74]

You get what you give, your original post was childish and nothing else you have written would make it seem any better. Too bad you didn't actually try discussing it in a constructive manor instead of a childish manor.

If you honestly think he used blitz max to screw you you have some very serious issues....might wanna do a search on what Blitz is. Sometimes, you cannot make all the people out there happy, and I don't think anything at this point would make you happy.