The Drunken Lizard Pub

IJBall wrote:

Randomizer wrote:Having more than one level in light armor doesn't really help.

Note that this is probably true for primarily 'ranged'-characters, but would not be true for melee-fighters - as every Level in Light (or Heavy) Armor will knock down enemies' ToHit scores by 2%...

Um, really? I haven't tested it myself, but all of the info I've seen on this board has been that the armor skills are just useful for increasing damage reduction.

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote: Note that this is probably true for primarily 'ranged'-characters, but would not be true for melee-fighters - as every Level in Light (or Heavy) Armor will knock down enemies' ToHit scores by 2%...

Um, really? I haven't tested it myself, but all of the info I've seen on this board has been that the armor skills are just useful for increasing damage reduction.

Unless it's changed since Book I, yeah that's the way it works. (For example, see this post in the Book I forum - scroll down to my discussions of the Leatherskin and Stoneskin spells...)

Now, like you, I haven't tested this in Book II (I'm planning on grabbing v1.04c when I get home this afternoon, and this will be one of the things I'll be sure to test...). But I doubt this has changed since Book I... [shrug]

IJBall wrote:

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote: Note that this is probably true for primarily 'ranged'-characters, but would not be true for melee-fighters - as every Level in Light (or Heavy) Armor will knock down enemies' ToHit scores by 2%...

Um, really? I haven't tested it myself, but all of the info I've seen on this board has been that the armor skills are just useful for increasing damage reduction.

Unless it's changed since Book I, yeah that's the way it works. (For example, see this post in the Book I forum - scroll down to my discussions of the Leatherskin and Stoneskin spells...)

Now, like you, I haven't tested this in Book II (I'm planning on grabbing v1.04c when I get home this afternoon, and this will be one of the things I'll be sure to test...). But I doubt this has changed since Book I... [shrug]

Confirmed - in Book II as well, each level in your Armor Rating leads to a 2% reduction in an enemy's ToHit score.

Thanks fot the advice, Randomizer... useful tips, especially on Medicine

(Hmm... by the way: now that I look back on it, really: that must be one of the absolute strangest posts I've ever made, that last one . . . not to mention also one of the longest. Oh, well. Maybe somebody on these forums is appreciative of lengthy stream-of-consciousness posts by people who've gotten way too little sleep.)

(Anybody here into the writings of Gordon Lish? No? Oh, well.)

So... now the stats for my latest (and final, I'm almost sure, this time):

Light Armor : 1
Foraging : 2
Bows : 3
Cartography : 4

Come level 2 I'd be planning to invest in Medicine, if not for Randomizer's advice, since the skill sounds really useful, oh well.

So: instead of that maybe I'll invest in Hide in Shadows, or Find Hidden, or Pick Locks... .

Well, I'll see. Probably Pick Locks, it seems likely to be rather more useful.

...though of course, finding some gems in unlikely places might raise my wealth somewhat adequately at rather a crucial moment. Wouldn't be unhappy with that.

I think I was going to invest, at the start, in Unarmed Combat but forgot... but I suppose it's actually turned out for the better that I didn't, otherwise I probably would've forfeited the True Ranger feat by now, which I really want to do, now.

I mean, really: Why else be a Ranger, after all, if you're not gonna be a True Ranger?

'Cawz I ain' gawna be no Economy Ranger, nope, nosiree Bob.

...One of the numerous new cool things about Book II, I thinkee.

I also like that I'm playing a game as a Ranger first time through, for once, instead of the typical default Fighter. The game sort or really quickly made me realize that a Fighter probably wouldn't make so much survival sense, and that the Ranger might actually be the easiest class... if you suspect you're going to be playing a game multiple times: always start off with the easiest class, I say.

And still it seems like it'll be somewhat of a challenge as well, in some ways. Cool!

Have I mentioned how nice it is that someone is writing challenging CRPG's? Eh?

I believe I did!

(Not only that: but a game that urges you straight off to play a Ranger, of all things, a class often dismissed in CRPG's. An extra blessing.)

I'm playing a Ranger now in my third time playing through the game (Figher first time, Rogue the second). So far (lev 7) I've found Ranger to be the easiest class to play. The amount of ammunition generally available in the game I think is about just right. The bow skill needs to have a drawback, like running out of ammo, otherwise it would be overpowered (or more overpowered than it already is). With a bow you already get what in my opinion is easily the most useful/overpowered skill feat (axes get the least useful/most underpowered skill feat IMHO). Add to that the fact that you can do damn good damage with a good bow and the right skills/stats without the constant wear and tear that melee characters face. If arrows were so plentiful and cheap in the game that running out would be a non-issue then archers would be insanely more powerful than melee characters, as it is I think they're already somewhat more powerful as it stands.

IJBall wrote:Confirmed - in Book II as well, each level in your Armor Rating leads to a 2% reduction in an enemy's ToHit score.

Does it matter how much and what kind of armor you're wearing? Does that mean that getting your light armor and/or heavy armor skill up to 50 makes you unhittable?

Well, the MOST powerful class in Book II is definitely Mage, but Ranger is a good second, especially if you buy enough training in Elemental to get Dense Nimbus. Those Taurex Spearmen can be really tough, otherwise, as they have a longer range than you do (they can actually hit you before you can see them on the screen).

Evnissyen, I would recommend you up that Bow skill early. It will save on how many arrows you waste missing things, and the Feat, even when you have to wait a long time for it to regen, can save your butt in tough situations. The foraging can definitely help you with the classic Ranger's problem of not being able to afford more ammo.

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote:Confirmed - in Book II as well, each level in your Armor Rating leads to a 2% reduction in an enemy's ToHit score.

Does it matter how much and what kind of armor you're wearing? Does that mean that getting your light armor and/or heavy armor skill up to 50 makes you unhittable?

I don't know all the details, but I don't think it's as simple as that, because various mobs have various ToHit bonuses (and penalties) that get worked into this - for example, I think Taruaxes, and esp. Gen. Ghorr, have such a large ToHit bonus that you'd likely have to go over an Armor Rating of 50 to get them down to a ToHit of 2%.

(Note: A ToHit of 2% is the minimum value, just like a ToHit of either 98% or 99% is the maximum - so there will always be some chance that a mob can hit, regardless of how high your Armor Rating is.)

Anyway, I think all I can say with certainty is a mob that has a flat 50% ToHit score when your Armor Rating is zero will get down to only a ToHit score of 2% if your Armor Rating is 24 or higher.

(As to the "difference" between Light and Heavy Armor, and your Armor Rating, I don't believe there is one, which is one of the biggest criticisms of Heavy Armor in the Eschalon series...)

I remember a base armor rating of 84 will give a taurax legionaire a 1% chance of hitting you. You need less for the other taurax types except General Ghorr. It's possible to get there with +3 imbued heavy armor, a shield, and stoneskin. It's easier with the elemental chameleon spell or invisibility.

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote:Confirmed - in Book II as well, each level in your Armor Rating leads to a 2% reduction in an enemy's ToHit score.

Does it matter how much and what kind of armor you're wearing? Does that mean that getting your light armor and/or heavy armor skill up to 50 makes you unhittable?

It seems to me that we are talking about two different things here - armor rating, and skill in light or heavy armor. AFAIK, the latter merely increases the chance that you might get a 50% damage reduction. But more levels in an armor SKILL do not increase your armor RATING. Using an editor, I just increased a char's skill to 100 - his armor rating was unchanged, but his damage reduction went to 80 (which I believe means he has an 80% chance that if hit he'll suffer only 50% of the damage roll).

If this is right, then investing in armor skills does not seem to be a very good investment.

sfemet wrote:It seems to me that we are talking about two different things here - armor rating, and skill in light or heavy armor. AFAIK, the latter merely increases the chance that you might get a 50% damage reduction. But more levels in an armor SKILL do not increase your armor RATING. Using an editor, I just increased a char's skill to 100 - his armor rating was unchanged, but his damage reduction went to 80 (which I believe means he has an 80% chance that if hit he'll suffer only 50% of the damage roll).

If this is right, then investing in armor skills does not seem to be a very good investment.

Ah, you may be right about this.

I thought I remembered that every level in an Armor skill boosted your Armor Rating by +1.

If it does not, that's an obvious problem - and the obvious solution, then, for Book III, would be to change it so that every level in an Armor Skill also raised your Armor Rating by +1.

But, yeah, without that, the Armor skills are nigh on useless, and there's no advantage to putting any additional Levels into an Armor.

And that just seems "broken" to me...

sfemet wrote:

IJBall wrote:Confirmed - in Book II as well, each level in your Armor Rating leads to a 2% reduction in an enemy's ToHit score.

It seems to me that we are talking about two different things here - armor rating, and skill in light or heavy armor.

Ah, okay. I thought IJBall was saying that levels in the armor skills decreased the chance of you being hit.

IJBall wrote:I thought I remembered that every level in an Armor skill boosted your Armor Rating by +1.

If it does not, that's an obvious problem - and the obvious solution, then, for Book III, would be to change it so that every level in an Armor Skill also raised your Armor Rating by +1.

That's essentially what I've proposed, but tied to the actual armor you're wearing. The current system has your DR increase relative to your skill level and the number of pieces of that kind of armor you're wearing. The advantage of heavy armor is that you get more DR with fewer skill points.

I would keep the same system, but replace the DR bonus with one to armor rating.

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote:I thought I remembered that every level in an Armor skill boosted your Armor Rating by +1.

If it does not, that's an obvious problem - and the obvious solution, then, for Book III, would be to change it so that every level in an Armor Skill also raised your Armor Rating by +1.

That's essentially what I've proposed, but tied to the actual armor you're wearing. The current system has your DR increase relative to your skill level and the number of pieces of that kind of armor you're wearing. The advantage of heavy armor is that you get more DR with fewer skill points.

I would keep the same system, but replace the DR bonus with one to armor rating.

I actually have no problem with Levels in Armor doing both - the one Armor Level = +1 Armor Rating (AR) should be the "primary" benefit of leveling in an Armor, and the increase in Damage Reduction (DR) for Levels in an Armor can be the nice (though less important) "secondary" benefit.

But the 1 Armor Level = +1 AR thing is a must for rebalancing Book III, IMHO.

IJBall wrote:

SpottedShroom wrote:

IJBall wrote:I thought I remembered that every level in an Armor skill boosted your Armor Rating by +1.

If it does not, that's an obvious problem - and the obvious solution, then, for Book III, would be to change it so that every level in an Armor Skill also raised your Armor Rating by +1.

That's essentially what I've proposed, but tied to the actual armor you're wearing. The current system has your DR increase relative to your skill level and the number of pieces of that kind of armor you're wearing. The advantage of heavy armor is that you get more DR with fewer skill points.

I would keep the same system, but replace the DR bonus with one to armor rating.

I actually have no problem with Levels in Armor doing both - the one Armor Level = +1 Armor Rating (AR) should be the "primary" benefit of leveling in an Armor, and the increase in Damage Reduction (DR) for Levels in an Armor can be the nice (though less important) "secondary" benefit.

But the 1 Armor Level = +1 AR thing is a must for rebalancing Book III, IMHO.

But should it be the same for both Light and Heavy armor? Maybe Light Armor should be +1 AR per 2 levels in the skill.

The other major difference between light and heavy armor is the sound issue, though. I don't know how much heavy armor affects your ability to move silently, personally, as I've never really built a character to wear it, but it should be a big difference, and not just from pieces on the feet and legs. It's hard to move in a stealthy fashion when you're wearing a steel bucket over your entire midsection.

EDIT: Oops, torso armor does affect move silently. See how often I pay attention to armor?

Kreador Freeaxe wrote:

IJBall wrote:

SpottedShroom wrote:That's essentially what I've proposed, but tied to the actual armor you're wearing. The current system has your DR increase relative to your skill level and the number of pieces of that kind of armor you're wearing. The advantage of heavy armor is that you get more DR with fewer skill points.

I would keep the same system, but replace the DR bonus with one to armor rating.

I actually have no problem with Levels in Armor doing both - the one Armor Level = +1 Armor Rating (AR) should be the "primary" benefit of leveling in an Armor, and the increase in Damage Reduction (DR) for Levels in an Armor can be the nice (though less important) "secondary" benefit.

But the 1 Armor Level = +1 AR thing is a must for rebalancing Book III, IMHO.

But should it be the same for both Light and Heavy armor? Maybe Light Armor should be +1 AR per 2 levels in the skill.

That's an issue I look forward to discussing with all of you when the Book III forum opens up!

(But, yeah, I agree with you - Heavy Armor should get some kind of additional benefit, and +2 AR (or, maybe, +1.5 AR) per Level of Heavy Armor, or what you're suggesting, or something like that, seem like the most obvious solutions...)