Thoughts and Suggestions for Book III

[vdweller]

Before everything else: I really enjoyed Book I and Book II. They really take gaming to the previous level, that is, good old-school RPGs.

I will now try to present some suggestions for Book III. Most of them are inspired from other games, most notably Ancient Domains Of Mystery (ADOM). I will also try to be in the developer's shoes, by "rating" the difficulty of an idea to be inplemented.

• Identified items stay identified. Why having to pay a merchant 10 times to identify a simple piece of dried meat? If this upsets the Lore skill balace, there are 2 ways to rectify this: a) Powerful unID'd items should always need identification if one fails their Lore check and b) Lore also identifies cursed items, which will be discussed below.
  Also, what about trial and error? For example, players could drink inidentified potions in order to see what they can do. Many dangerous potions, including potions of poison/disease/condensed soda (empties the stomach ) should make "drink and find out" a risky task.
  From a developer's POV: I don't believe that maintaining an internal list of already identified items is hard. Trial and error, however, would require more items, for the "error" part.
• Cursed items. Imagine the player's frustration after foolishly equipping with a good-looking axe, only to find out they can't compel themselves to unequip it! Cursed items may also affect a hidden "luck" statistic. Atheistic characters might even be immune to them! Cursed items add difficulty to a game, but they also reward careful playing. They might even help story and quest-wise:
  a) A powerful lich (as if there are non-powerful ones) is destroyed, and a cursed artifact ring is dropped... Why should normal people be allowed to freely wear undead people's stuff?
  b) Imagine this quest: You have to wear a cursed item (ie an extra-heavy cloak) and carry it to a specific location where only there it can be destroyed. Depending on your mood, some NPCs could accompany you, after first shouting "You have my axe!" "And my bow!"
  From a developer's POV: This should require some work, depending on where you want to go with cursed items. Aside from the simple cursed/uncursed flag, planning where to put specific powerful and cursed items, as well as a potential cursed item-related quest will take additional time.
• Corruption. In ADOM, corruption was like background radiation. An invisible threat, slowly accumulating inside the player character's being, more slowly in outdoors areas and more rapidly below the earth and in other dangerous places. As the PC's corruption grows, characters change, gaining new abilities, but also becoming horrendously deformed: Acid breath. Feet transformed into hooves. Scaly skin which adds to Armor Class but reduces Dexterity. Antennae growing on the top of your head, randomly revealing nearby map sections. In the end, after too many corruptions, the player is totally consumed by the powers of Chaos and is transformed in a being of pure chaos, where it's Game Over. In ADOM, coruption was very difficult to be removed.
  Before anything else, a note: I'm not saying to entirely copy ADOM's corruption and the way it works. I am merely presenting the way ot works in an existing game. A totally different type of "something which slowly accumulates in the background" thing can be implemented in Book III.
  Corruption offers some cool in-game effects:
  a) No more "hey, I'm gonna rest for 20 hours inside this dungeon!". Corruption is a gentle way to remind the player that "the clock is ticking" so don't waste your time too much.
  b) Corruption effects add great diversity (since they can appear in a random order) and may completely change the way a player acts in-game. Fighters may drop their sword and fight with those new razor-sharp blades protruding from their hands. Wizards may spit acid on enemies,thus conserving MP for the larger ones. And so on...
  c) It's a great way of simulating the effects of a great evil spreading across the lands, which affects players every turn. Plus, certain areas could be accessed only with certain corruptions, which may lead players to actually seeking to obtain certain corruptions.
  From a developer's POV: Now this should require some work. While it's easy to add an internal counter for tracking corruption amounts, and add corruptions after this counter reaches certain intervals (corruptions are nothing more than buffs), this would require setting corruption rates for areas etc. Still worth the trouble IMHO.
• Dipping item in potions.Coating your sword with demon oil would result in an explosive attack. Poison is pretty much obvious, and dipping weapons in potions of healing would deal extra damage to undead. Of course, the potion is wasted afterwards.
  From a developer's POV: Pretty simple, after one manages to define that "the next X attacks will deliver Y effect to the enemy".
• Perception affects how well a character sees in the dark. Why not having keen-sighted characters?
  From a developer's POV: Awfully simple!

I might be adding some more ideas later. It depends on how well-received those previously mentioned ideas will be by other forum members

[KillingMoon]

Interesting suggestions!

I like the idea of the cursed item that can't be unequipped! It shouldn't make the game that much harder, as most items desintegrate quickly. Incase of a weapon you could just look for some barrel to bash.
It could be a bit difficult to blend a feature like this in with the current difficulty settings; the 'easy' option with no wear to equipment would all of a sudden become a lot more difficult!

[Kreador Freeaxe]

I would think that cursed equipment wouldn't actually deteriorate--that being part of the curse. It has been suggested a few times. BW has not, to my knowledge, made any statement as to why he chooses not to implement it, but I'd guess it has to do with the way unidentified objects work in the game right now.

As for items staying identified, as long as you have an identified version of a stackable object in your inventory, all future ones of that you pick up will be identified. I also like the idea of a learning curve for identifying items after you've had them identified a few times by vendors. But then, you did quaff an untested memory wiping potion a while back, so your recall may not be all that good.

The corruption idea I'm not so fond of. Part of the point of Eschalon is the ability to just wander around and do what you want. The sense of urgency to complete the main quest is your own, not necessarily something imposed by a game mechanic. I can see your point, but it would really make Eschalon a different kind of game if you did that--one I personally would be less happy to play.

[Gorgon Rider]

I love the idea of cursed items, but don't know if it would be all that easy to implement, especially with Lore and identifying working as it does now. I remember back in the D&D days (PnP) that you could equip any item you found even without knowing what it was, but if it were cursed you couldn't remove it without a Remove Curse spell. I do like that implementation, but since you cannot equip unidentified items the whole system would need rehashing for that to work. If you go for some other system, I can see it becoming an easy metagame solution to avoid them (for one example, if it's implemented so you can't ID an item, then you know it's cursed so you don't equip it). If they don't show up as cursed (i.e look like an ordinary item) until equipped, then there would also need to be some kind of 'detect curse' spell/potion/vendor. Anyway, just a few ramblings about that.

IDed items staying IDed: yeah, I like that idea. If it's easy to implement I vote for it. I found it jarring to be finding an item you've seen before but have no idea what it is. And yeah, I know you've previously taken an untested memory wipe potion, but that can only work as an explanation for some game quirks for so long.

Corruption: don't think that's going to go over too well. I see it as similar to the spirit meter in Mask of the Betrayer. While I didn't find it that onerous, I didn't particularly find it fun either, and there was one huge outcry about it when Mask of the Betrayer was released. Seems most people don't enjoy that kind of thing. I probably could put up with it, but I don't really view it as a 'fun' mechanic. I'd likely find it more tedious and annoying than enjoyable.

Perception: I don't think it should let you see better in the dark to the degree of Predator Sight, but maybe if it were looked at as a boost to a spot/listen mechanic so your penalties for fighting in the dark were reduced (but not eliminated), that would be cool. Maybe reduce the fighting in the dark penalty by a few percent for every 5 points.

[vdweller]

About the way identified items work as of now:
I know that when you already have a stackable item other identical items get ID'd too, but let's assume you just ate your last Taurax burger, and 5 rounds later you find another in a barrel. Why not remembering it?

About corruption: Your arguments are more than valid. I already had in mind a toned down version of what occured in ADOM when writing my first post. I, too, like roaming around in Eschalon. If I were to add another argument, I would say that I like strolling while outdoors, but when in a dungeon, I want to be done with it as quickly as possible. Why? Not because it's dark or ridden with dangerous creatures. But because I get this feeling that, well, I'm underground, walls are closing on me, rotting stuff is everywhere, and it's not a pleasant experience for me (my character, that is) to be down there! So if the majority of people playing Eschalon (this is a daring assumption) feels like this, a corruption-like thingy could be only implemented in dungeons and other dangerous areas, where players already try to spend as little time as possible. Did I mention that I'm assuming stuff?

About perception and your ability to see more clearly in darkness: I was thinking more like a high perception making you able to see a square or two ahead. Obviously, potions of Predator sight etc would be much more powerful, so their usefulness wouldn't be cancelled.

[tungprc]

I like the idea of having a bonus or less penalties for a character with a high leve in a stat, I'd just prefer to have the stat be concentration instead of perception. Why? Because perception is a stat that mages use heavily and they don't really need any more bonuses. I'd make concentration reduce the time of special attack cooldown periods and give bonuses to melee combat. It'll provide another reason to boost concentration.

Another option that might be doable is to trade one skill point for three attribute points. You might have to visit a priest and pay a price but it'd give another area to spend money.

I'm against the corruption idea too, for Eschalon. I've never seen the idea turn out to be fun, although it pops up every so often in a game. Most people just end up looking for a workaround.

[xolotl]

Semi-facetiously, there should totally be an extra calculated "Fashion" statistic which is keyed entirely off of how well your equipped-armor matches itself, and the condition of your clothing. Higher fashion sense should act as an increased Mercantile skill or something. :)

Why having to pay a merchant 10 times to identify a simple piece of dried meat?

I remember the first fighter class I tried in Book 2 wasn't intelligent enough to identify a Potato. I'm amazed he could find his way out of his cottage at the beginning!

[Antigrav]

My suggestion: Pure mages need a nerf. I suggest some of the more useful spells require reagents. Lockmelt, for example, could require spending a unit of sulfur to cast. Kind of like spellcasting in Ultima V and beyond, but simpler. Currently, playing as a mage is just too easy.

[tungprc]

@Antigrav, this was an over-compensation of the first game. Mages were way harder than melee in the first game and they're quite a bit easier than melee this game. The big change? Sleeping is almost carefree in EB2 and it was suicidal in EB1. I was one of many clamoring for much faster regen and we got it. However, since there are only 5 monsters on a whole map most of the time, mages have free reign over their mana. Character balance will need to be addressed again. A way to address this would be for monsters to have a good chance to be in melee range when a mage detects them. The few times things got hairy for my mage was when he got surrounded.

[nomo]

first let me say i think book 2 is one of the best RPG's i've ever played.
therefore dont take these points as negative critisicm, i'd just love to help improve the series.
i always play as a rogue, so my suggestions are from that standpoint.
one thing i i have found is that playing as a rogue you spend most of your time running away.

id like to see more class dependant quests to add to replay value. ie quests that just wont be offered to you unless you have required skill in a certain field. this would make playing as different classes a different experience and add massively to replay value.

a Stealing skill.
since we have thief as a class, but you can't actually steal from anyone. this would open up more quest potential and ways for rogues to make money without relying on fighting as much.
the skill could be used to steal from characters (perhaps viewing their inventory? - with a chance of stealing calculated form your skill level, and the weight of the item), monsters (gems, specials from specific monsters, or just ammounts of gold), and for taking items from someone's containers without being noticed in shops etc.

hiding in shadows/move silently:
when being "silent", your footsteps shouldnt be heard (currently you CAN hear them when you're supposedly being silent) - then when you become "un-silent", your footsteps should sound, alerting nearby people/monsters instantly to your presence.
hidden in shadow could make your sprite fade out slightly, almost like a toned down invisibility effect?
these two suggestions make these skills more graphically/sound represented rather than having to check for the icons in your status box all the time.
also on this subject: these two skills should increase damage to attacking with certain weapon types (piercing/bows and perhaps thrown?) i.e. if you can sneak up on something without it noticing, and attack, you should be able to deal extra damage. likewise attacking from an unseen position with a bow should deal more damage the first hit.

another skill for identifying enemies and their various attributes (health, mp, weaknessess etc.) perhaps a new bestiary feature to go along with the skill.

foraging
id like more reagents to be specific to certain areas. i think they kind of are at the moment, but most of the time you get a random selection i think.
also you should get random small found items from foraging (mushrooms, fruit, vegetables etc.)

cartography
how about this idea - clicking on the map area on your screen should bring up a joined up map of everytwhere you have been. when you buy maps, the relevant areas are overlaid on top. i often found it hard to work out which way to go, even when referring to the in game maps.
ability to add notes would also be good.

equipment.
i would like to see more graphical variation in your sprite dependant on weapons, armor, and clothing. currently there are only a few looks for light/heavy armor.
basically what i mean is different hues for clothing/hats/gloves/cloaks and each armor piece having a distinct look on your character.
e.g.'s
*hats/helms - there is only wizard style hats in one colour (even though the items in inventory show different colours), and all helms seemingly look the same.
*there only seems to be a sprite for leather or metal chest armour, it would be nice if the differnt kinds gave different looks.
*gloves all look the same.
*it would be nice to be able to wear something over your armour like a robe, available in differing colours. a different equip slot maybe for these extra pieces. perhaps make such items magical and only available in certain class/skill specific quests eg different colours for mages in elemtal or divination quests and dark coloured one for rogues.
i just think it would be good if differnt classes had differnt looks, really most builds look the same at the moment apart from the hat/helmet and what weapon/shield you have equipped.
also it would add to additional play as you could try and find certain items to complete your look.

someone already suggested a fletching skill, making being an archer much less costly in the early game.

more general points:
could we have more equipment save slots?
equippable quivers, holding differing ammounts of arrows.
more named weapons
ability to empty out flasks and more access to empy flasks (i was trying to farm regs to make money from alchemy, but kept running out of flasks)
when in "tactical view", mousing over an enemy/person should tell you who or what it is.
you shouldnt need as much lore as you do to ID basic items. it should only really apply to magical or high end stuff and/or some quest items


*i've edited this post a couple times*

[nomo]

My suggestion: Pure mages need a nerf. I suggest some of the more useful spells require reagents. Lockmelt, for example, could require spending a unit of sulfur to cast. Kind of like spellcasting in Ultima V and beyond, but simpler. Currently, playing as a mage is just too easy.

i agree and i've felt this way about mages in lots of RPGs.

i dont know how they could be de-powered without ruining the experience or hugely revamping the engine though. and since i've not played much as a pure mage, im probably not the one to comment.
what i do know though is my high level character has high enough elemetal to cast top tier spells at level 6, and it wasnt hard to achieve this even with my rogue/fighting skills too.
perhaps you should need more skill in both magicks to do the high level spells. needing reagents for the higher up ones is also a good idea.

the level of traps/locks you can take out should be reduced to like 75% instead of 95% -as far as i know there's only like 3 chests that cant be opened with lock melt.

[ArthurFrane]

Some really great ideas in here, everyone, and a few I'm somewhat hesitant to embrace from a gaming perspective. Development-wise, I'm all for making changes that will improve gameplay, but not if it means pushing release dates back

The idea of cursed items sounds great, and I think would both improve the overall experience and also fit well with the storyline. I haven't actually finished EB2 yet, and have tried to avoid too many spoilers, so I can't say for certain, but...it seems like having the player start off in EB3 with some kind of curse to remove or deal with might be possible.

My reticence to embracing all of the ideas presented so far, is that I'd worry about offering too many "new and improved" skills, feats, equipment options, etc. The idea that we might have a really customizable character feels a tad too close to the WoW genre. I like that I have to really struggle to find ammo for my ranger sometimes, or that my bare-fisted rogue is too stupid to read all the scrolls he finds, but not so dumb that he can't have a Lvl 4 Gravedigger's Flame over his head in a dungeon.

I'm all for enhancing and improving, I just worry that this beautifully designed rich world of old-school gaming might tumble into the rift of modern "RPG" design, which is anything but role-playing, IMO.

My two shiny coppers.

[sjc03]

Before everything else: I really enjoyed Book I and Book II. They really take gaming to the previous level, that is, good old-school RPGs.

I agree your thoughts on the games. Your suggestions apart from corruption I also agree with in that they could improve Book 1 & 2 but I doubt they would be implemented.. perhaps your hope for Book 3 may come about.

[sjc03]

cartography
how about this idea - clicking on the map area on your screen should bring up a joined up map of everytwhere you have been. when you buy maps, the relevant areas are overlaid on top. i often found it hard to work out which way to go, even when referring to the in game maps.
ability to add notes would also be good.

equipment.
i would like to see more graphical variation in your sprite dependant on weapons, armor, and clothing. currently there are only a few looks for light/heavy armor.
basically what i mean is different hues for clothing/hats/gloves/cloaks and each armor piece having a distinct look on your character.
e.g.'s
*hats/helms - there is only wizard style hats in one colour (even though the items in inventory show different colours), and all helms seemingly look the same.
*there only seems to be a sprite for leather or metal chest armour, it would be nice if the differnt kinds gave different looks.
*gloves all look the same.
*it would be nice to be able to wear something over your armour like a robe, available in differing colours. a different equip slot maybe for these extra pieces. perhaps make such items magical and only available in certain class/skill specific quests eg different colours for mages in elemtal or divination quests and dark coloured one for rogues.
i just think it would be good if differnt classes had differnt looks, really most builds look the same at the moment apart from the hat/helmet and what weapon/shield you have equipped.
also it would add to additional play as you could try and find certain items to complete your look.

*

Some nice ideas that would improve things in Book 1 & 2 hopefully they may be looked at for Book 3.

[King_ov_Death]

In my comeback, I'll add my two cents.
This is what I'd like to see in Book III:

Technical:

• Dynamic shadows; multiple light sources cast multiple shadows.
• Water reflections.
• Positional sound: The SFX will be played on the right or left speaker according to their position.
• Basic physics: The player can see trees' branches moving, leaves being carried away by the wind and pieces of cloth moving (using predefined animations, not real physics).
• Corpses: Enemies' corpses remain in place instead of just disappearing.

Level design:

• More tall grass (as far as I know, there were no lawnmowers in 7xx ) (optional, as it will make the game harder because the player won't be able to see enemies clearly).

Gameplay:

• Sanity gauge: If the player traverses a dungeon or a forest through the night, or sees disturbing things, his/her sanity will start going down. As the gauge lowers, his/her vision will start blurring, he/she will start seeing irreal creatures, everything around he/she will catch fire, and finally he/she will commit suicide. If you played Eternal Darkness or Amnesia, then you'll know what I mean. (optional)
• Drunkness: If the player drinks too much alcohol, his/her vision will start blurring and his/her abilities and attributes will be lowered.
• Roofs: The player cannot see inside buildings until he/she gets inside. Although it's a gameplay disadvantage, it's more realistic. (optional, see tall grass)