Unbalanced mage to warrior paths

[Loriac]

Having said all this, I do feel that upper range offensive magic needs to be boosted. This will be addressed in the next patch.

Fair enough, however I would suggest that you make it more expensive then to get the higher level spells - at present, you can make a generalist character that stomps through most melees, and has over 200 mana and 150 hp at higher levels. Adding even stronger high level magic unbalances this further.

On the other hand, you could argue that by then the game is quite easy anyway, so not very much is unbalanced by adding higher damage spells. Whilst this probably works for Book 1 (due to its overall length), I'm not sure this approach would work for a much longer game where your character is at high level longer.

[dak]

He could always raise the wisdom, or intelligence requirement for the higher level spells,, my warrior mage cannot learn invisibility since his int is under 20 for example....

[Loriac]

He could always raise the wisdom, or intelligence requirement for the higher level spells,, my warrior mage cannot learn invisibility since his int is under 20 for example....

Agreed - also, the check for int and wis requirements should be done when the spell is cast as well as when its learnt. The current system where you can equip all sorts of items to learn a spell and then never worry about it again is just wrong.

However, I would also suggest that required skill ranks be increased - i.e. if you're going down the pure mage route, you just shouldn't have enough skill points to do anything else but magic.

[Necromis]

small changes could fix that issue. Make wis/int checks not include modifiers. Make higher buffed spells require higher wis/int. Say 25 for the top nuke spells. Also require higher skill level to learn the nuke spells. Those would keep any generalist from being able to slash and nuke and give the Pure mage the skills they should have for reaching high level.

[realmzmaster]

I have started a new character. I am playing a mage allowing him to wear only robes, cloaks, wizard hat, maybe leather gloves if I find them to protect may delicate spell casting hands. I am having a blast! I was able to pick off the walking corpses in the crypt from long range without having to worry about Dungeon Fever. I just used fire dart and hit & walk. Keep my distance from them. The slimes and archers are a little bit different since they shoot projectiles. But , I cast Air Shield and fire away with Fire Dart. The ambushing Bandit King and his coronies required use of terrain and slimes. All I had to do was lure the bandits back to the slime and they commence to fighting each other. I used Fire Dart to pick off bandits and slimes when they got low on HP. Easy way to collect experience. The only bandit who had enough HP to survive was the Bandit King ( I forget his name). Who I dusted off with Fire Dart collecting 125 XP. Even the poison bite lizards are easier. I will probably experience more toruble later in the game. But, I am at four level so far. I actually have more gold to buy potions and such since I can sell all that armor and weapons.

[corwin]

I had to laugh though at some of the spell descriptions:- this spell causes MASSIVE damage, 7-8 HP!! Sorry, but according to my dictionary, that's NOT massive!!

[Loriac]

I had to laugh though at some of the spell descriptions:- this spell causes MASSIVE damage, 7-8 HP!! Sorry, but according to my dictionary, that's NOT massive!!

per level I thought? i.e. 42-48 at level 6 which isn't too bad

[realmzmaster]

Another question comes to mind. How do you define a pure mage ( wizard )? Do you take it in the D & D sense, or Tunnels & Trolls because RuneQuest does not use character classes per se. A wizard has access to wizard/sorcerer spells. The wizard can know any number of spells and must memorize the spells he/she wants to use. The wizard has proficiency using the club, dagger, light and heavy crossbow and quarterstaff. In Eschalon if you select the magic user you get Elemental as a starting skill, but if you want to use a dagger or quarterstaff you also have to select swords or bludgeoning skill. If you do not select swords or bludgeoning you get an unskilled weapon penalty. The wizard cannot use shield or armor except for robes, cloaks and wizard hats. Pure mages also could not choose divination. But in Eschalon you can choose divination. The only way to play a pure mage in Eschalon is you must decide on a generally accepted definition of pure mage and then only select the skills necessary to fulfill that definition. But the interesting aspect is that some light armor allows more mobility than heavy robes, especially some of the robes wizards are suppose to wear! I suspect this armor limitation was more arbitrary than anything else. I can see shields and weapons that have to be hand held. I can see heavy armor as a limitation especially since supposely some magic does not work in the presence of iron. I cannot see the restriction for leather or hide armor except to keep the class from becoming overpowered. Well just my musings, take them as you will.

[Darek Mace]

Hmmm I'm not as experienced as you guys but I've not had any prob's running a spellcaster. I went the path of a healer with druid ie a true druid.

With 8 Med and 30PER I was regenerating 1/1 mana and 1/4 underground and I did notice the difference in a fight.

Surely the whole point of playing a magic user is that you are playing someone who has to use brains over brawn? If all you wanna do is sit there and repeatedly press a button until your opponent is dead then that's a fighter for you. A mage has to think a little cleverer and use his spells and tactics to fit the adversary? For example entangle works very nicely against acid grubs but sucks on raptors or Taurax.

The game does suggest that even magic users should have a weapon skill as a back up, and can I just point out that one of the most famous wizards in fantasy history ie Gandalf was more than happy to use a staff and an Elven longsword without feeling he'd compromised his principles!

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to play a character who only uses magick, I am saying that if you limit yourself in that way then the game will be harder.

Oh and alchemy and wizardry are traditionally related for very good reasons, and I dont just mean mana potions. You're in trouble and taking a beating well thats what potions of thickskin, keen sight and ogre strength are for!

Just my opinion

[trinko]

to me the issue is that if you play a mage character, ie one whose primary way of causing damage is magic, the game becomes a pretty boring series of kill a couple monsters and then rest, or run back to the well that regenerates mana points. i like playing mages and it would be nice if this game supported that. as it stands it really isn't too good from a playability perspective. plot seems interesting but having to rest after killing 3 or 4 hornets is just boring.

i really don't care too much about what mage character is. the bottom line is that the games magic system is fine for a game that has multiple characters in play, so you can have a fighter and a priest and a mage for example, but it's not conducive to fun with a single character in play.

to fix this what has to happen is that the damage to mana ratio has to go up at a rate consistent with the hp for monsters rate as you progress. this could be done by giving players more mana or by regenerating it more quickly or by making more powerful higher level spells.

bottom line the next two games should allow mages and fighters to do about the same level of damage in a given period once they get to a certain level. i don't mind mages having a tougher time at the start but not through the whole game.

[realmzmaster]

Tthe point is mages will always have a tougher time than melee characters especially against archers and in close combat. If a character is able to survive the initial onslaught of the mage and comes within striking distance the mage is in deep trouble. A good archer will always target the magic users first because of their ability to throw spells of mass effect. If the spells are too overpowered the game becomes a cakewalk and no fun. Given a mage and melee fighter of equal level, at a distance the mage has the advantage, close up the melee fighter will disrupt the mages spells and make short work of him. Given an archer and mage of equal level it becomes a game of speed. Will the archer be able to pull, notch and first the arrow before the mage can cast the spell. The mages advantages are distance, the ability to mass attack, rachet up or down the power of the spell and the ability to use different spells as circumstances warrant. The mage also has defensive spells that can help like air shield. A rogue will not slug it out toe to toe with a paladin or knight unless cornered. The rogue relies on stealth. Very few mages can slug it out with a melee character. The mage has to make good use of their spells and know when to retreat. Each character requires the game to be played in a different manner. The mage is not going to be able to play the game at the same speed as the melee fighter. The only advice I can give is that playing a mage or a rogue requires patience.

[thomas]

When I started this thread, I've been comparing ease of game for warrior and mage, so I could know how hard is it for the other.
I stated mages disadvantages above, so I will just shortly "compress" it realted to same comments : I still see trouble with mana regeneration - you just can't put all you have into perception, so you will not be able to direct your pee, but you will pee pure mana. I won't matter running around monsters with low-powered spells, if I won't have to sleep 13 hours many times in a map.
What I didn't know when creating mage was supreme powerfullness of druidic tradition - there're no noticable disadvantages, while it solves main problem - so, for powergames, druid is the way.

But, when playing pure-warrior with lot's in endurance, he was immortal god of ultimate destruction - nothing could ever touch him, monsters night dreams were about doing him 1hp of damage.
So what I think is necessary is more things, that could harm warrior - usualy it's magic, but not only warrior can easily get high resist for it, but there're like five magic users in game (3 beholders, 3-5 poltergeists - and even they're causing more trouble to mage, as they're imune to fire).

[realmzmaster]

If you are having problems with the eyes and poltergeists compress atmosphere works very nicely. I am having a blast playing a mage. I am up to level 12. I have had no real problems killing monsters. I convert all the weapons and armor I find into cash to buy mana and health potions. I add mana fortify and I am good to go. I also make potions because I found two brewmaster + 3 rings.

I got my preception up over 40. My mana regenerates very swiftly when I rest. The mage has slow hp regeneration so I keep enough healing potions around to heal up. If my hp is a full. I can regenerate all my mana in under 4 hours. If you have to regenerate both health and mana it will take twice as long or more. Also if you put some points in strength and a point in budgeoning weapons you can use a quarterstaff quite effectively. You can also enkindle the weapon for more damage. Playing a mage is fun.

[MrPhoenix]

well, warriors ARE ultimate gods of destruiction.
but they're also dull. you can't do crap except for ... bashing stuff.
"oh, a closed door."
*bash, bash*
"oh, a closed chest."
*bash, bash*
"oh, a monster."
*bash, bash*
not exactly my idea of fun.

there is only one problem, i have as a mage.
mana.
yeah, you saw that one coming. but i'm not talking about the regeneration problem.
lemme explain ...

i encounter three taurex. what do i do? i don't get them down fast enough before they're on me and hack me to pieces.
not with fire dart (yay @ resists, why the hell can someone resist a blast of fire in his face?), not with compress air, only deep freeze does halfway enough damage.
now, rank 6 deep freeze costs me 36 mana. and i need three of 'em to nuke a single taurex. well...I DON'T HAVE THE FRIGGIN' MANA TO KILL THEM ALL AND BUFF ME AND WATNOT!
i've 230 mana with amulet and rings'n stuff. that's enough for SIX! deep freeze.
not to mention necessary stuff like invisibility or whatever. since they move on to me while i nuke.
so i've to use haste rank X to kite them, gather them and nuke them with compress atmosphere. if i'm lucky, i gather them fast enough to get them down before i run out of mana.
what the hell ...


anyway.
as a mage with 25 in divine and elemental magick, some points in hide in shadows, pick lock and alchemy, i can do almost everything. and i friggin' love it.
i can do everything, yeah. but nothing of it easy. i can melt locks, but that costs me mana. so i may be better off with lockpicking it.
i can tapkill traps, but mana problem again.
i could buff to beyond recognition, but ... yeah, you guess. mana. once im finished with haste and nimbleness and stoneskin and ogre strength and chameleon and enkindled/enchanted weapon and predator's sight bless, i'm out of mana.
but well, i kick ass for 20 rounds.

so i mostly nuke, use air shield here and there and do all the other stuff the old fashioned way.
i pick locks, i nuke trapped stuff with fire darts till the trap goes off, i hide in shadows to open chests right beyond the npc wo can't to shit against me. i hide in shadows against enemies too, nuking them with deep freeze or compress atmosphere whilst they can't see me is fun!
invisibility, fortified mana, manapots & mass boil / supernova killed the guards in the chancellor's room without any trouble. being overpowered rocks! i just used haste III for fun.
okay, i really had to use fortified mana/manapots. lol

i can sneak, i can steal, i can nuke, i can kill, i can heal my wounds, curses and diseases, i can buff me up, i can use all kinds of weapons and armor, i have an executioner's axe (9 dmg) +1 and a diamond-edged blade (9 dmg) +4 and some neat light armor i imbued with alchemy, i can create pots, i can do things every warrior couldn't even dream of. i have no restrictions. there is no "can't do that because of [...]." i can do it. i can do everything. one way or another. if i cant trapkill or melt it, i can nuke it, bash it or lockpick it. i can sneak behind it, i can turn invisible or can haste me up and sprint through or just blast it to bloody pieces.
i am god. and it's fun because i've actually to do something for it. more then swinging my club.

[trinko]

i agree a mage can do anything. however it takes too much boring work. i only had 180 mana points. so to fight tough monsters i did the following

1) lured them to the edge between maps. did as much damage as i could. jumped to next map. rested. repeat as needed. boring.

2) as above but instead jumped back to blackwater and used the well to restore mana and then trudged back to the fight--best used mulching the raptors at the old park.

Clearly this isn't realistic nor, for me at least, is it fun.

Bottom line: i really like the game. but the constant resting in order to be able to have enough mana to destroy the monsters is boring.

While i'm whining--no cheese please-- i might also mention the day night cycle is a real loser if you're not a thief or sneaky type. i'd recommend adding a button that lets you zip past the night--no resting benefit though, ie no restored hit points or mana--for the all too frequent case when you're walking walking walking--did i mention you have to walk too much in this game?--walking walking walking-- for seeming hours to get someplace where you can rest to restore the mana you need to destroy the monsters that take many times your total mana supply to destroy--walking walking walking walking walking--instead of having weapons get destroyed when bashing they should have your boots wear out---walking walking walking and you haven't lost any hit points or mana but it's night so you can't see where you are--i haven't found a source of light that's any good compared to daylight-- but if you rest you'll be eaten alive.

But even with all these complaints i think the game is good. Really! No kidding! Recommended it to my son even.

However the huge amount of resting needed for mages to kill the monsters makes the games plot seem thin even when it's fairly good. I guess that's sorta it, for a mage character it seems too much like a hack and slash game and not enough like a good role playing game.